Mazurka

Guidance Counseling; Biology. HELP! :-)

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mamatoseven
20 hours ago, texasmomtothree said:

Cool! What did he teach?

Statistics.  I love the area around UIW/Trinity! 

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mamatoseven
17 hours ago, HannahB said:

In my experience this isn't necessarily true. Dd took 24 credits at CC in high school and every single one transferred to her private school (not even in the same state).. From what I've heard from other parents whose kids went to our CC this isn't unusual.  

So so while it's not guaranteed, don't rule out private schools without checking out his options. 

This is encouraging!

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Mazurka
On 2/8/2018 at 9:01 PM, HannahB said:

In my experience this isn't necessarily true. Dd took 24 credits at CC in high school and every single one transferred to her private school (not even in the same state).. From what I've heard from other parents whose kids went to our CC this isn't unusual.  

So so while it's not guaranteed, don't rule out private schools without checking out his options. 

 

On 2/9/2018 at 2:13 AM, Merry said:

 

I was just going to say this too. If there is a particular school he ends up interested in, it's worth it to see if they will accept the credits. You may be surprised. 

Thanks for mentioning this, both of you. No point in writing private schools off until we know for sure.

Edited by Mazurka

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tkbbmomof4

You've rec'd some good advice.  I will add a little of my experience both as a former college adm at a CC and at a top state university and now as a parent.  While I love CC's and feel they are a great starting point, I do caution you to be in touch w/ any universities that your child might be interested in to see how they view science courses taken at the CC's.  My experience is that for a student wanting to pursue a science degree or wanting to look at med school, grad schools, etc. in science fields, the CC science courses are now looked down on.  In fact, I've had three med schools state that if they had students applying that had the same gpa's, same experiences, etc. but had a student that had taken their science course-work at a CC versus the student that took it at a 4-year institution they would turn down the CC student.  Our local universities have agreements w/ some of the CC's for transfer courses and while they will accept the science credits from CC's (for selected courses -- not all courses) they have noted that for students needed to take additional level science courses they tend to not be as prepared w/ the same foundational information and skills as those coming from their 4-year science courses.  

I know in SC the 4-year schools all have either a list of courses they will accept from other state schools and some even have a transfer equivalency page that allows you to select colleges throughout the US and enter the course number and see if it 1) transfers and 2) what course it transfers in as.  So you might look at some of the 4-year schools and see if they have transfer equivalency pages you could enter courses in. 

My experience w/ most of the terminal programs from CC's is that the majority of the courses aren't taught at the same level as the transfer courses.  They are designed to get a person directly into the workforce more in an applied fashion so it's more hands-on knowledge than the same critical thinking, research skills that supposedly you'd have with transfer coursework.

While my dh though it would be beneficial for our kids to go the route of CC -- we actually only had two do CC course-work for dual enrollment which was a fantastic option. Both were admitted into the Honor's Program while in high school and is something I would seriously look into if your CC has it.  The course-work is taken up several notches, the encourage research and presenting w/ instructors, etc. DD ended up decided to stay at CC for two years which was a good option to help her.  She did not obtain her AA because the goal was to take the gen ed coursework that she would need and her foreign languages so I helped her hand-pick all the courses to ensure that they transferred and counted for what she needed.  Since she was going to be an Early Childhood Ed major she did go ahead and take one of the science courses at the CC and then took the second science at the 4-year school because it was geared more toward teachers.  The CC Bio 101 course was not taught at the same level as the 4-year Bio 101 courses my boys had.  

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Mazurka
14 hours ago, tkbbmomof4 said:

You've rec'd some good advice.  I will add a little of my experience both as a former college adm at a CC and at a top state university and now as a parent.  While I love CC's and feel they are a great starting point, I do caution you to be in touch w/ any universities that your child might be interested in to see how they view science courses taken at the CC's.  My experience is that for a student wanting to pursue a science degree or wanting to look at med school, grad schools, etc. in science fields, the CC science courses are now looked down on.  In fact, I've had three med schools state that if they had students applying that had the same gpa's, same experiences, etc. but had a student that had taken their science course-work at a CC versus the student that took it at a 4-year institution they would turn down the CC student.  Our local universities have agreements w/ some of the CC's for transfer courses and while they will accept the science credits from CC's (for selected courses -- not all courses) they have noted that for students needed to take additional level science courses they tend to not be as prepared w/ the same foundational information and skills as those coming from their 4-year science courses.  

I know in SC the 4-year schools all have either a list of courses they will accept from other state schools and some even have a transfer equivalency page that allows you to select colleges throughout the US and enter the course number and see if it 1) transfers and 2) what course it transfers in as.  So you might look at some of the 4-year schools and see if they have transfer equivalency pages you could enter courses in. 

My experience w/ most of the terminal programs from CC's is that the majority of the courses aren't taught at the same level as the transfer courses.  They are designed to get a person directly into the workforce more in an applied fashion so it's more hands-on knowledge than the same critical thinking, research skills that supposedly you'd have with transfer coursework.

While my dh though it would be beneficial for our kids to go the route of CC -- we actually only had two do CC course-work for dual enrollment which was a fantastic option. Both were admitted into the Honor's Program while in high school and is something I would seriously look into if your CC has it.  The course-work is taken up several notches, the encourage research and presenting w/ instructors, etc. DD ended up decided to stay at CC for two years which was a good option to help her.  She did not obtain her AA because the goal was to take the gen ed coursework that she would need and her foreign languages so I helped her hand-pick all the courses to ensure that they transferred and counted for what she needed.  Since she was going to be an Early Childhood Ed major she did go ahead and take one of the science courses at the CC and then took the second science at the 4-year school because it was geared more toward teachers.  The CC Bio 101 course was not taught at the same level as the 4-year Bio 101 courses my boys had.  

Well, what you've written is always my worry, particularly the bolded.  Although somehow I thought things were changing in the way CCs were perceived. 

My local CC has some of the tracks that the state schools are required to accept, so I hope that it won't be a problem.   That said, my husband did such a program in Florida, and he almost didn't graduate on time when some "official" decided that one of his CC courses didn't count.  He had to jump through a lot of hoops to prove that yes, it did count.  If he hadn't been able to do that, he would have had to go to school an extra semester, and he already had a job lined up!

ETA:  If a student goes to CC for two years, and then transfers to a university and gets a 4 year degree, are grad programs really going to look back (and down on) the CC years?  It seems like once you get that four year degree, the previous education shouldn't matter any more.

Edited by Mazurka

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tkbbmomof4
4 hours ago, Mazurka said:

Well, what you've written is always my worry, particularly the bolded.  Although somehow I thought things were changing in the way CCs were perceived. 

My local CC has some of the tracks that the state schools are required to accept, so I hope that it won't be a problem.   That said, my husband did such a program in Florida, and he almost didn't graduate on time when some "official" decided that one of his CC courses didn't count.  He had to jump through a lot of hoops to prove that yes, it did count.  If he hadn't been able to do that, he would have had to go to school an extra semester, and he already had a job lined up!

ETA:  If a student goes to CC for two years, and then transfers to a university and gets a 4 year degree, are grad programs really going to look back (and down on) the CC years?  It seems like once you get that four year degree, the previous education shouldn't matter any more.

I knew that 10+ years ago when my oldest went to college the college he attended would not accept his AP science credits because they wanted him to take science at their university bec they felt AP and CC were not up to par w/ what a science major needed.  I thought that since that time since all the local CC's were working very closely w/ local pubic and private universities that things had changed.  However, my current college freshman was wanting to take Chem at the CC over summer and his advisor said they wouldn't allow it because he has a plan to attend Med school or grad school and that med schools and grad schools look down on CC science credits.  I thought it was just the advisor wanting him to take the universities science courese so I did some checking w/ Med school admissions people and advisors and that's when I was told they look at all the course-work and where it's from.  If they are deciding between kids w/ essentially the same MCAT scores, same intership creditials, same GPA but one has done their pre-req sciences at a CC and one at a 4 year institution they will take the 4 year kid over a CC every time.  So, for my ds he will take some of the other gen ed type things in summer at the local CC but will take all science during the school year at his 4 year institution.  

 

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Mazurka
20 hours ago, tkbbmomof4 said:

I knew that 10+ years ago when my oldest went to college the college he attended would not accept his AP science credits because they wanted him to take science at their university bec they felt AP and CC were not up to par w/ what a science major needed.  I thought that since that time since all the local CC's were working very closely w/ local pubic and private universities that things had changed.  However, my current college freshman was wanting to take Chem at the CC over summer and his advisor said they wouldn't allow it because he has a plan to attend Med school or grad school and that med schools and grad schools look down on CC science credits.  I thought it was just the advisor wanting him to take the universities science courese so I did some checking w/ Med school admissions people and advisors and that's when I was told they look at all the course-work and where it's from.  If they are deciding between kids w/ essentially the same MCAT scores, same intership creditials, same GPA but one has done their pre-req sciences at a CC and one at a 4 year institution they will take the 4 year kid over a CC every time.  So, for my ds he will take some of the other gen ed type things in summer at the local CC but will take all science during the school year at his 4 year institution.  

Just when I was starting to feel good about the CC option, lol. 

I really despise this whole process.  I was talking with another woman yesterday, and we were lamenting how the college application process is so complicated today.  And so expensive, with the dang application fees.  She is a public school mom, and her kids got into really good schools, but she, too, thought the process today is so much harder than it used to be.  How the heck do you ever know what to do?  Although as several people upthread commented, I guess you don't ever, but mistakes can be so expensive today. 

 

 

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texasmomtothree
3 hours ago, Mazurka said:

Just when I was starting to feel good about the CC option, lol. 

I really despise this whole process.  I was talking with another woman yesterday, and we were lamenting how the college application process is so complicated today.  And so expensive, with the dang application fees.  She is a public school mom, and her kids got into really good schools, but she, too, thought the process today is so much harder than it used to be.  How the heck do you ever know what to do?  Although as several people upthread commented, I guess you don't ever, but mistakes can be so expensive today. 

 

 

I don't think this rules out using the community college though. He could still use it for all the other general education courses (Comp. 1 & 2, history, social science, college algebra, fine arts, foreign language, literature, etc) and maybe just hold off on the science courses until he transfers to a 4 year university. Just look at what the 4 year college accepts for their general curriculum requirements and have him take those courses (minus the science) instead of following one of the community college's degree programs.

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Merry
1 hour ago, texasmomtothree said:

I don't think this rules out using the community college though. He could still use it for all the other general education courses (Comp. 1 & 2, history, social science, college algebra, fine arts, foreign language, literature, etc) and maybe just hold off on the science courses until he transfers to a 4 year university. Just look at what the 4 year college accepts for their general curriculum requirements and have him take those courses (minus the science) instead of following one of the community college's degree programs.

I would even add, just because this was the case specifically with med schools doesn't mean it's that way for all med school admissions (it could be state or region-specific for example), and also doesn't mean it's that way for other sciences. I think in a case like this, you have to know more about your specific school system and how it's viewed. You may want to talk to some people in admissions at both the CC and the 4-year school. 

Sometimes schools really do want students to only take major-specific courses at their schools, and you should be able find that out both for the under grad and possible grad school. (To me, the whole undergrad issue is different than grad school though. I get that a 4-year undergrad department might want students to only take from their teachers for major classes to grant a degree. But if a school accepts transfer students, and a student transfers in and has no problem taking upper level courses, then obviously there's a strong enough foundation there. In that case, I have to say that I think it's pretty ridiculous and bordering on income discrimination for a grad school to have two students with similar MCAT's and similar grades at the 4-year-school, to then decide the only way they can differentiate is based on whether one started at a CC. How about letters of recommendation or looking at research projects done at the 4 year school? How about internships...? How about personal interviews? I think their CC criteria is bunk and a cop-out! But, I get sometimes you have to play the game. But this is why asking questions now is your best approach.) 

Edited by Merry
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Mazurka
21 hours ago, texasmomtothree said:

I don't think this rules out using the community college though. He could still use it for all the other general education courses (Comp. 1 & 2, history, social science, college algebra, fine arts, foreign language, literature, etc) and maybe just hold off on the science courses until he transfers to a 4 year university. Just look at what the 4 year college accepts for their general curriculum requirements and have him take those courses (minus the science) instead of following one of the community college's degree programs.

This is a good suggestion. Thanks!

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Mazurka
19 hours ago, Merry said:

I would even add, just because this was the case specifically with med schools doesn't mean it's that way for all med school admissions (it could be state or region-specific for example), and also doesn't mean it's that way for other sciences. I think in a case like this, you have to know more about your specific school system and how it's viewed. You may want to talk to some people in admissions at both the CC and the 4-year school. 

Sometimes schools really do want students to only take major-specific courses at their schools, and you should be able find that out both for the under grad and possible grad school. (To me, the whole undergrad issue is different than grad school though. I get that a 4-year undergrad department might want students to only take from their teachers for major classes to grant a degree. But if a school accepts transfer students, and a student transfers in and has no problem taking upper level courses, then obviously there's a strong enough foundation there. In that case, I have to say that I think it's pretty ridiculous and bordering on income discrimination for a grad school to have two students with similar MCAT's and similar grades at the 4-year-school, to then decide the only way they can differentiate is based on whether one started at a CC. How about letters of recommendation or looking at research projects done at the 4 year school? How about internships...? How about personal interviews? I think their CC criteria is bunk and a cop-out! But, I get sometimes you have to play the game. But this is why asking questions now is your best approach.) 

Well, my DH and I were talking about this last night, and my DH strongly  strongly that Will really needs to be at the CC, to gain confidence and experience.  I guess he'll have to take one step at a time, and we'll worry about the next step when we get there. 

 

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Gilead

CC can be a good way to go to build a student's confidence and independence. Make sure the student talks to a counselor *every* semester. At our CC, this guarantees you earlier registration, always a good thing. And make sure the student talks with the counselor every semester about the transferrability of units. In most states, CC and state U have inter-school transfer agreements and ours has a printed list of requirements and which course(s) satisfy them. It can be updated every semester.

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tkbbmomof4

I think the CC is still a good stepping stone and was what we were actually hoping our middle ds would do.  But, in the end, he also had big scholarship money he would have left on the table if he'd gone to CC first instead of accepting the offers at the 4-year school.  In addition, he wanted the full college experience that his oldest brother had of living in a dorm, etc. that he felt like our dd gave up by choosing to attend CC first.  I have realized in all this that 1) you need to talk to both the CC and the 4-year schools -- and not just admissions but talk to the advisors within the potential programs because they know more than the admissions people about what their programs are looking for. 2) Don't rely on the advisors in CC to help select courses that your student needs -- you really need to take a proactive step w/ them.  If the goal is a 4-year degree there are courses that an AA requires that a 4-year degree doesn't so you could be adding time on to a 4-year degree. Print off the course catalog requirements from the 4-year schools and keep track of what courses meet the requirements at the CC.   3) I think for science or engineering majors it's still advisable to take CC courses in the gen ed courses like Engl, Social Science, math, humanities and then transfer to a 4-year school w/out obtaining an AA.  4) While our more current experiences have been in SC/NC schools -- I saw the same things in schools in the mid-west when I worked in them years ago. 

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Mazurka
21 hours ago, Gilead said:

CC can be a good way to go to build a student's confidence and independence. Make sure the student talks to a counselor *every* semester. At our CC, this guarantees you earlier registration, always a good thing. And make sure the student talks with the counselor every semester about the transferrability of units. In most states, CC and state U have inter-school transfer agreements and ours has a printed list of requirements and which course(s) satisfy them. It can be updated every semester.

Thanks for the tip.  I think I may have seen something on the CC website about talking to a counselor and early registration.  I'm glad you pointed this out, or I may have forgotten about it. 

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Mazurka
19 hours ago, tkbbmomof4 said:

I think the CC is still a good stepping stone and was what we were actually hoping our middle ds would do.  But, in the end, he also had big scholarship money he would have left on the table if he'd gone to CC first instead of accepting the offers at the 4-year school.  In addition, he wanted the full college experience that his oldest brother had of living in a dorm, etc. that he felt like our dd gave up by choosing to attend CC first.  I have realized in all this that 1) you need to talk to both the CC and the 4-year schools -- and not just admissions but talk to the advisors within the potential programs because they know more than the admissions people about what their programs are looking for. 2) Don't rely on the advisors in CC to help select courses that your student needs -- you really need to take a proactive step w/ them.  If the goal is a 4-year degree there are courses that an AA requires that a 4-year degree doesn't so you could be adding time on to a 4-year degree. Print off the course catalog requirements from the 4-year schools and keep track of what courses meet the requirements at the CC.   3) I think for science or engineering majors it's still advisable to take CC courses in the gen ed courses like Engl, Social Science, math, humanities and then transfer to a 4-year school w/out obtaining an AA.  4) While our more current experiences have been in SC/NC schools -- I saw the same things in schools in the mid-west when I worked in them years ago. 

This is good advice.  Thank you!  There is so much to do.

 

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