SewWhat?

Non-College jobs; lets list what our families do

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SewWhat?

If you or your hubby didn't go to college what do you/does he do for a living?

My hubby has been a diesel mechanic on garbage trucks for 25y. On semis/dump trucks before that for a couple years. When he hired into the trucking company he was good with engines/cars, but talked more up on diesel than he actually knew. He worked from manuals till he could do the work without them. 

I've had some jobs here and there to supplement but for the most part I've been homeschooling the kids for the last 12y without much other income aside from some survey sites I earn points that I transfer to amazon giftcards. (message me if you'd like an invitation to do them) 

Otherwise, he earns a good living to support a family, without having gone to college.

 

Just a reminder that we need to talk with our kids about other options than just college. Not everyone is cut out for college.

Edited by SewWhat?

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Mazurka

While both Carl and I have degrees, Carl's nephew stopped a semester or so short of earning his.  He is a firefighter, and is now taking some classes in EMS.  He has already earned some certificates that brought him better pay, but he is now in a more serious program that he takes classes at night while still working full-time.  Before he was a firefighter, he worked with what he called, "black gold," and it was not pepper, or oil, but ah, human waste.   He was partners with a guy in a business that cleaned up after floods, disasters, etc, so he worked with more than sewage build-up, but it was truly a dirt job.  The company would often be called on by insurance companies to clean up after disaster.   He made great money (6 figures, I believe), but his partner died in a tragic accident, and while he tried to manage the business on his own, he eventually dropped it and became a firefighter instead.

Carl's BIL never went to college, but worked his way up in a big department store chain until he was a general manager.  Then he got laid off, and he had to really scramble for a job.  He essentially pounded the pavement, and eventually ended up in a mortgage company where he did very, very well, even without a college degree.  He is a very personable guy, and apparently he was able to drum up a lot of business.  He, too, ended up making 6 figures within a few years.   I'm not sure that pathway would work today.  Seems like most bank/mortgage jobs want college degrees.  He did this in the 90s.  He ended up retiring early to maximize his retirement when the economy tanked in 2008,  but he and Carl's SIL have lived very well since.  I think he worked in the mortgage industry for less than 10 years.  It was amazing, really, how well he did. 

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SewWhat?
21 minutes ago, Mazurka said:

While both Carl and I have degrees, Carl's nephew stopped a semester or so short of earning his.  He is a firefighter, and is now taking some classes in EMS.  He has already earned some certificates that brought him better pay, but he is now in a more serious program that he takes classes at night while still working full-time.  Before he was a firefighter, he worked with what he called, "black gold," and it was not pepper, or oil, but ah, human waste.   He was partners with a guy in a business that cleaned up after floods, disasters, etc, so he worked with more than sewage build-up, but it was truly a dirt job.  The company would often be called on by insurance companies to clean up after disaster.   He made great money (6 figures, I believe), but his partner died in a tragic accident, and while he tried to manage the business on his own, he eventually dropped it and became a firefighter instead.

Carl's BIL never went to college, but worked his way up in a big department store chain until he was a general manager.  Then he got laid off, and he had to really scramble for a job.  He essentially pounded the pavement, and eventually ended up in a mortgage company where he did very, very well, even without a college degree.  He is a very personable guy, and apparently he was able to drum up a lot of business.  He, too, ended up making 6 figures within a few years.   I'm not sure that pathway would work today.  Seems like most bank/mortgage jobs want college degrees.  He did this in the 90s.  He ended up retiring early to maximize his retirement when the economy tanked in 2008,  but he and Carl's SIL have lived very well since.  I think he worked in the mortgage industry for less than 10 years.  It was amazing, really, how well he did. 

I was just thinking the parents in this group, but if we're going to go to extended family....

My younger brother is a house painter. He specializes in murals and faux finishes. He would have loved to go to college for an art degree but my mom convinced him it's was worthless, so he didn't. And then ended up working for a painter and then opened his own business. With market fluctuation he's not been able to totally support a family with 6 kids though. His wife is a dental hygienist and works part time to make up the difference (and homeschools as well.)

My dad was a floor layer his entire career. My mom was a SAHM till I was in jrhi, when she went to school for nursing.

Hubby has one brother doing the same thing he's doing. Another brother is s truck driver. His dad was a heavy equipment operator. Dad, hubby and mechanic brother are (or were, his father has passed now) all part of the same union.  Hubby's work wasn't union in the shop, but the drivers of the garbage trucks were union. So, when that union started pushing for the shop (shop, referring to the repair shop) to go union hubby campaigned for his dad's union to come in rather than the drivers union. So, hubby didn't start off union, but the shop became union 19y ago. What a huge blessing!!!

We're extremely pro-union. 

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combatjulie

I went start to college for a BSN (on an ROTC scholarship) and have been working as a nurse ever since, currently part time so I can homeschool.  

My DH chose the Army after a failed year or 2 of CC.  He went in with no degree but used education benefits offered to him in the service to earn first an AA and then a BS before he retired after 21 years service.  He worked on helicopters in the army as a mechanic/ crew chief.  He now works in IT at the local university and got a masters using his GI Bill post retirement.  

 

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SewWhat?
2 hours ago, combatjulie said:

I went start to college for a BSN (on an ROTC scholarship) and have been working as a nurse ever since, currently part time so I can homeschool.  

My DH chose the Army after a failed year or 2 of CC.  He went in with no degree but used education benefits offered to him in the service to earn first an AA and then a BS before he retired after 21 years service.  He worked on helicopters in the army as a mechanic/ crew chief.  He now works in IT at the local university and got a masters using his GI Bill post retirement.  

 

My Navy son has 2 more classes and will earn an AS. He went in with zero high education. He's been in 8y last month and has 2 left on this enlistment. He's trying for officer package. If he makes officer he'll likely go career, but if not likely get out. 

He's about to be transferred and back on a sub for 6mo straight Oct-Mar'ish. He'll have one year left after he gets back, so they'll decide what to do depending on officer or not.

HIs wife is an RN (BS, going for Masters and NP.) 

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Gilead

My 21yo does in-home senior/disabled care and works as a lifeguard at a nearby city's senior center. The lifeguard thing started as a mom-insists-you-work teen summer job and led to her finding out that she enjoyed being around seniors. Even tho' it's p/t, she has 401K. Then she also works for a local in-home care agency full-time (overnight shifts). After a few years of doing that they've offered her the opportunity to be a case manager, but she's not sure she's ready for that. She's still working on her A.A., which will equip her to later transfer to a state U if she wishes. That's not something she needs for either job. She didn't even need to be a CNA -- certified nursing assistant -- but she does know how to lift people in/out of bed with a mechanical hoist or from a wheelchair, walker to car, etc.

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SewWhat?
35 minutes ago, Gilead said:

My 21yo does in-home senior/disabled care and works as a lifeguard at a nearby city's senior center. The lifeguard thing started as a mom-insists-you-work teen summer job and led to her finding out that she enjoyed being around seniors. Even tho' it's p/t, she has 401K. Then she also works for a local in-home care agency full-time (overnight shifts). After a few years of doing that they've offered her the opportunity to be a case manager, but she's not sure she's ready for that. She's still working on her A.A., which will equip her to later transfer to a state U if she wishes. That's not something she needs for either job. She didn't even need to be a CNA -- certified nursing assistant -- but she does know how to lift people in/out of bed with a mechanical hoist or from a wheelchair, walker to car, etc.

My mom started working at a hospital as sort of candy-striper and they paid for her AS for nursing. (as long as she agreed to work for them a certain number of years after she earned her degree)

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Gilead
13 minutes ago, SewWhat? said:

My mom started working at a hospital as sort of candy-striper and they paid for her AS for nursing. (as long as she agreed to work for them a certain number of years after she earned her degree)

That's pretty cool! So far, dd has only had to have her CPR/First aid certification for senior care and she gets that with her lifeguard training, renewed every 2 years. The Senior center pays her for the class or pays for the hours she's in the recert class. They have such high turnover since it remains a p/t only job, that the senior center wants to keep her.

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Countrymom9

Dh is one of the smartest men I know and went to college for two years total. He has master's licenses in plumbing and electricity, a contractor's license, and a building inspector's license, all self-taught. He has an aircraft mechanic's license from a trade school, a pilot's license, and a flight instructor's license, all from a cc non-degree course. He knows all kinds of arcane and sometimes-interesting things about astronomy, creation science, and history, as well as physics in general, aviation, and aerodynamics. Excluding the last nine months, he has supported our family for decades now. Some of it has been hairy-scary financially but mostly we've done okay.

I went to college for three and a half years. I still contemplate getting a BA sometimes, but I never do it. I'm a competent office worker in spite of having no formal training in it.

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SewWhat?
1 hour ago, Countrymom9 said:

Dh is one of the smartest men I know and went to college for two years total. He has master's licenses in plumbing and electricity, a contractor's license, and a building inspector's license, all self-taught. He has an aircraft mechanic's license from a trade school, a pilot's license, and a flight instructor's license, all from a cc non-degree course. He knows all kinds of arcane and sometimes-interesting things about astronomy, creation science, and history, as well as physics in general, aviation, and aerodynamics. Excluding the last nine months, he has supported our family for decades now. Some of it has been hairy-scary financially but mostly we've done okay.

I went to college for three and a half years. I still contemplate getting a BA sometimes, but I never do it. I'm a competent office worker in spite of having no formal training in it.

I think that might be 20yo in 40y.But, we'll see... He's still a work in progress. LOL

I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up. I have a phlebotomy certificate but after working it for 2 1/2y at the time I decided I never want to do that again.

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Countrymom9
7 hours ago, SewWhat? said:

I think that might be 20yo in 40y.But, we'll see... He's still a work in progress. LOL

I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up. I have a phlebotomy certificate but after working it for 2 1/2y at the time I decided I never want to do that again.

If I could "be" something, I'd be a child psychologist (really! Raising ds23 gave me the interest as well as the knowledge that there need to be more of them!). Or I'd go to medical school, something I was never encouraged to do as a teen and would have laughed at if anyone had suggested it. At my age now, I'll take any honest and decent-paying job I can get if dh doesn't get one soon. I do have a slight ambition to finish college but only because I think it would be kind of nice to have a degree, since I'm so close to one.

Writing about my dh made me think of an amusing story later. When we had been married about four or five years, my ancient yard-sale Electrolux vacuum cleaner spewed black smoke and quit. I mourned to dh that I would never find another one for $9. He took it apart and had it working in an hour. I said in amazement, "I didn't know you could fix vacuum cleaners!" He responded, "It's just an electric motor! They're all basically the same!" This kind of thought pattern has saved us a lot of money over the years and probably helped him on a few licensure tests as well.

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home4learning

Following!!

My whole family and DH’s, even back to both sets of parents, have 4 year degrees. My parents have MAs as does my brother. So no help there.

However, my 25/26 yo cousin dropped out of college at the beginning of his second year. He floundered for at least one year. Finally got himself out of the slump and eventually landed a job in a law firm (not my uncle’s but he is a lawyer and probably had connections). I don’t know his exact title but I think he did mostly office work. This led to some kind of certification in mediation I think? And now he is finally going back to school to finish his degree because he has a career path. They live halfway across the country from us and we only see them at Thanksgiving - if they come - which is why my details are sketchy. But I love that he is finding his way and seems to be doing well.

He mentioned the year things really came together that he finally made it to age 25. The brain isn’t fully developed until then. And I recently heard a psychologist talk about this and how every kid will mature at a different rate. This means erratic and risky or illogical choices/behavior aren’t uncommon in teens/young adults simply due to the development process and how quickly their brain is/isn’t growing and solidifying some key growth elements into place. (I don’t remember all the technical language). I know it’s a bit off topic but I’ll never forget my cousin proclaiming he was finally a “big boy” partly due to making it to age 25 and seeing his life finally even out.

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SewWhat?
2 hours ago, Countrymom9 said:

If I could "be" something, I'd be a child psychologist (really! Raising ds23 gave me the interest as well as the knowledge that there need to be more of them!). Or I'd go to medical school, something I was never encouraged to do as a teen and would have laughed at if anyone had suggested it. At my age now, I'll take any honest and decent-paying job I can get if dh doesn't get one soon. I do have a slight ambition to finish college but only because I think it would be kind of nice to have a degree, since I'm so close to one.

Writing about my dh made me think of an amusing story later. When we had been married about four or five years, my ancient yard-sale Electrolux vacuum cleaner spewed black smoke and quit. I mourned to dh that I would never find another one for $9. He took it apart and had it working in an hour. I said in amazement, "I didn't know you could fix vacuum cleaners!" He responded, "It's just an electric motor! They're all basically the same!" This kind of thought pattern has saved us a lot of money over the years and probably helped him on a few licensure tests as well.

That's my dh too, can fix almost anything mechanical! Yes, it sure does save money!!!! 

When I first graduated high school I went into school for nursing. I decided after one semester nope, don't want to do that. I think I only did it because I didn't know what else to do, and my mom was a nurse. Then I changed to criminal justice for a semester. Then I got married. I didn't get my phlebotomy certificate till about 8y later or so. I did because by then dh had had 2 spinal fusion surgeries and I thought if he ever became permanently disabled I'd need something to earn an income. Turns out, it doesn't pay much more than minimum wage. And, doing something THAT dangerous for minimum wage sucks. (working in blood all day long and people calling you names all day as well)

I wouldn't mind just working at Hobby Lobby or Michaels, so I can get a discount on yarn... LOL!

1 hour ago, home4learning said:

Following!!

My whole family and DH’s, even back to both sets of parents, have 4 year degrees. My parents have MAs as does my brother. So no help there.

However, my 25/26 yo cousin dropped out of college at the beginning of his second year. He floundered for at least one year. Finally got himself out of the slump and eventually landed a job in a law firm (not my uncle’s but he is a lawyer and probably had connections). I don’t know his exact title but I think he did mostly office work. This led to some kind of certification in mediation I think? And now he is finally going back to school to finish his degree because he has a career path. They live halfway across the country from us and we only see them at Thanksgiving - if they come - which is why my details are sketchy. But I love that he is finding his way and seems to be doing well.

He mentioned the year things really came together that he finally made it to age 25. The brain isn’t fully developed until then. And I recently heard a psychologist talk about this and how every kid will mature at a different rate. This means erratic and risky or illogical choices/behavior aren’t uncommon in teens/young adults simply due to the development process and how quickly their brain is/isn’t growing and solidifying some key growth elements into place. (I don’t remember all the technical language). I know it’s a bit off topic but I’ll never forget my cousin proclaiming he was finally a “big boy” partly due to making it to age 25 and seeing his life finally even out.

I don't know if the lack of responses is another sign of just how slow the forums are, or a sign that more people here what I'd guess average have college degrees. Probably both.

The latter is actually why I wanted to start the thread. To remind people that we don't HAVE to push our kids into college if they don't feel it's the best fit. I've seen way too many kids angry because their parents are pushing them into a career they don't want. 

But, coming from a mostly non-college family I guess I see it differently than college families. My dad didn't go to college, neither did his parents. His brother did not, neither did his sisters. Not one of his brother's kids went. I don't know about one sister's son. His other sister had 3 kids and only one went I think, maybe 2.  My mom's parents didn't go, were farmers. Her sister did not. Her brother worked in a trade, but I'm not sure if he went to college or not come to think of it. Mom went to secretarial school out of high school because her mom made her as a condition for allowing her to become engaged while still a senior in high school, but I'm not sure she finished. She certainly never worked in it. She didn't get her RN till I was in jrhi.

My older brother does have an industrial engineering degree and works in his field, his wife has a medical coding AS and does that. My younger brother is a house painter, but his wife his a hygienist. It's an AS degree. Both plan for all their kids to go to college. Older bro's twins graduate in a year. They are college material and want to go. Younger bro has 6 kids. I'm not sure they're all college material.. but time will tell. Some are still fairly young.

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Blessed by His grace

My husband and I both have college degrees. I went to college for five years to get my degree in teaching. The fifth year was to get my teaching credential. I only taught sixth grade for three years before moving overseas as a missionary. I initially took a year leave of absence  thinking I’d do a short term trip. I took a second year leave and then never returned. I’ve been on the mission field ever since. 

Our oldest dd is finishing her first year of university. She wants to be a nurse and will be applying to the nursing program. My second dd is not sure she wants to go to college. She’s not sure what she wants to do yet.  My ds has always wanted to be a firefighter. My youngest dd wants to be a math teacher or vet. It will be interesting to see how the Lord leads them. 

 

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SewWhat?
52 minutes ago, Blessed by His grace said:

My husband and I both have college degrees. I went to college for five years to get my degree in teaching. The fifth year was to get my teaching credential. I only taught sixth grade for three years before moving overseas as a missionary. I initially took a year leave of absence  thinking I’d do a short term trip. I took a second year leave and then never returned. I’ve been on the mission field ever since. 

Our oldest dd is finishing her first year of university. She wants to be a nurse and will be applying to the nursing program. My second dd is not sure she wants to go to college. She’s not sure what she wants to do yet.  My ds has always wanted to be a firefighter. My youngest dd wants to be a math teacher or vet. It will be interesting to see how the Lord leads them. 

 

You said you both have college degrees. Not non-college jobs as this thread asks for. There are tons of threads about college. That's why I started this thread, to discuss jobs you discuss with your kids that  do not involve going to college.

 

As I'd said on my previous comment, I think the lack of posters is showing again how slow these forums are. Not very diverse anymore. I'm sad about it. There are lots more options but there aren't enough people anymore to show them.

Edited by SewWhat?

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Blessed by His grace
32 minutes ago, SewWhat? said:

You said you both have college degrees. Not non-college jobs as this thread asks for. There are tons of threads about college. That's why I started this thread, to discuss jobs you discuss with your kids that  do not involve going to college.

 

As I'd said on my previous comment, I think the lack of posters is showing again how slow these forums are. Not very diverse anymore. I'm sad about it. There are lots more options but there aren't enough people anymore to show them.

I sent this before I finished my post and just came back to it now. Even though we both have degrees, we haven't used them since we moved overseas 25 years ago.  My son wants to be a firefighter like his uncle, my  older brother. My brother was able to retire at 50 with an incredible pension plan. He started off as a firefighter, worked on a paramedic degree, and became a captain. He loved being a firefighter and highly recommends it. I'm not sure how firefighters are paid in other states  but California firefighters do quite well.  My second daughter is thinking she may want to do some kind of trade school but is unsure at this point. She has mentioned dental hygiene.

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Blessed by His grace
2 hours ago, SewWhat? said:

 

The latter is actually why I wanted to start the thread. To remind people that we don't HAVE to push our kids into college if they don't feel it's the best fit. I've seen way too many kids angry because their parents are pushing them into a career they don't want. .

I agree! I can't imagine a kid going to college if they don't want to. It''s expensive and lots of work. 

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Bendxap
2 hours ago, SewWhat? said:

But, coming from a mostly non-college family I guess I see it differently than college families. My dad didn't go to college, neither did his parents.

My grandparents are so far back, I'm not sure there even were colleges then! (just kidding, of course, but none of them went to college)

Of my parents and my aunts and uncles (Mom had one sister, Dad had two brothers, and including their spouses), my dad is the only one that went to college. And he told me once that the only reason he went to college is that when he enlisted in the Army in WWII, he was put into college classes after taking an aptitude test. When he got out of the army, he finished his bachelor's degree because of the government support for going to college.

Out of the seven of us kids, only one doesn't have a college degree. He does very well for himself as a computer programmer and networker as well doing handy-man jobs.

Hubby hadn't even finished junior high when we got married. :O He had worked at a tire place (doing the grunt work of manually changing and fixing tires), worked for an uncle in an electronics repair shop, and done some grunt work for brick-layers. He became my language teacher (that's how we met) and thrives on learning anything and everything. He could have continued doing Bible translation, etc. without a college degree but he was "pushed" into doing a Bachelor's because a mission agency wouldn't take him without it. (We ended up not going with them anyways.) He got his BA in Teaching English as a Foreign Language, got his Master's last year and is now in a Ph D program. None of which he's actually used in a professional sense but he feels better equipped to deal with questions and criticisms of our ministry.

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SewWhat?
36 minutes ago, Blessed by His grace said:

I sent this before I finished my post and just came back to it now. Even though we both have degrees, we haven't used them since we moved overseas 25 years ago.  My son wants to be a firefighter like his uncle, my  older brother. My brother was able to retire at 50 with an incredible pension plan. He started off as a firefighter, worked on a paramedic degree, and became a captain. He loved being a firefighter and highly recommends it. I'm not sure how firefighters are paid in other states  but California firefighters do quite well.  My second daughter is thinking she may want to do some kind of trade school but is unsure at this point. She has mentioned dental hygiene.

My sil is a hygienist. She got it as an AS at Indiana University 25y ago but now at IU it's a full BS. At the time my sil got hers it was a 3y course plus a couple extra classes. She always said she wished they'd just add a few more and make it a full BS. But, I know other states have it as a lesser certification. That would make what they can and can't do on the job vary as well though.

I'm not sure how our current town does firefighting, but the town we were in for 20y was strictly volunteer. No pension options! LOL 

My hubby will have a nice pension once he retires from his non-college trade too. So did his dad and brother in the same union. Assuming he can make it to retirement that is... He's currently off on recovery from bicep reattachment surgery, 3m so far and another expected. Praying his body makes it to retirement!

My middle son wants to teach English as second language. He's taking a 3mo certification class right now. We'll see where that leads him! College didn't really work out for him the year he went.

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SewWhat?
39 minutes ago, Blessed by His grace said:

I agree! I can't imagine a kid going to college if they don't want to. It''s expensive and lots of work. 

Yes! But, happens every day. Then parents are all upset that they paid for it and their kids flunked out or whatever. 

Which, is one reason we were never going to fund our kids going, and we certainly have never told them they HAVE to go.

19 minutes ago, Bendxap said:

My grandparents are so far back, I'm not sure there even were colleges then! (just kidding, of course, but none of them went to college)

Of my parents and my aunts and uncles (Mom had one sister, Dad had two brothers, and including their spouses), my dad is the only one that went to college. And he told me once that the only reason he went to college is that when he enlisted in the Army in WWII, he was put into college classes after taking an aptitude test. When he got out of the army, he finished his bachelor's degree because of the government support for going to college.

Out of the seven of us kids, only one doesn't have a college degree. He does very well for himself as a computer programmer and networker as well doing handy-man jobs.

Hubby hadn't even finished junior high when we got married. :O He had worked at a tire place (doing the grunt work of manually changing and fixing tires), worked for an uncle in an electronics repair shop, and done some grunt work for brick-layers. He became my language teacher (that's how we met) and thrives on learning anything and everything. He could have continued doing Bible translation, etc. without a college degree but he was "pushed" into doing a Bachelor's because a mission agency wouldn't take him without it. (We ended up not going with them anyways.) He got his BA in Teaching English as a Foreign Language, got his Master's last year and is now in a Ph D program. None of which he's actually used in a professional sense but he feels better equipped to deal with questions and criticisms of our ministry.

What is the cultural norms for your hubby though regarding schooling?

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home4learning
1 hour ago, Blessed by His grace said:

I agree! I can't imagine a kid going to college if they don't want to. It''s expensive and lots of work. 

You definitely need to be purposeful about it.  My older two girls have had definitive interests since they were little, which also fit with their skill sets, and which we feel a college degree would give them more leverage and ability to hopefully make a career doing what they hope to do.  My younger two are a blank slate right now.  No idea.  One of them has interests that might suit trade school/trade work more, but the other I'm thinking no . . . he doesn't like to work with his hands so I just don't see it.  But time will tell.  We aren't opposed to other routes and are hoping to simply guide our kids on the path that will get them into a work field that suits them.  But college is way too expensive to go just to "get a degree."

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SewWhat?
28 minutes ago, home4learning said:

  But college is way too expensive to go just to "get a degree."

Yes!

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StampedingTurtlesInPB

I totally agree that college isn’t for everyone. But, that said, we all know that statistically speaking, college graduates earn more on average, and that certainly makes it easier to support a family. I do know of a couple families where the husband doesn’t have a degree but still does an excellent job supporting his family. I know far more families that are in the same boat degree-wise and they struggle financially. A couple families where the wives are the ones with the degrees, but they desperately want to stay home, so they pinch pennies to make it happen.

I know that I view things through a different lens since both my husband & I come from families where everyone gets a degree, and usually a masters or doctorate. In our area, when oil is up, lots of oil field workers can make great money with no degree. But it’s shaky ground when oil goes down.

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SewWhat?
15 minutes ago, StampedingTurtlesInPB said:

I totally agree that college isn’t for everyone. But, that said, we all know that statistically speaking, college graduates earn more on average, and that certainly makes it easier to support a family. I do know of a couple families where the husband doesn’t have a degree but still does an excellent job supporting his family. I know far more families that are in the same boat degree-wise and they struggle financially. A couple families where the wives are the ones with the degrees, but they desperately want to stay home, so they pinch pennies to make it happen.

I know that I view things through a different lens since both my husband & I come from families where everyone gets a degree, and usually a masters or doctorate. In our area, when oil is up, lots of oil field workers can make great money with no degree. But it’s shaky ground when oil goes down.

I supposed we run in different sorts of circles. I know more people with degrees struggling to find jobs than trades workers. (Including a family of 4, 2 mid 20s 'kids' and their parents, all have degrees, but they live together just to make ends meet as their incomes don't allow them to live on their own)

But, I also live in NW Indiana. Lots and lots of trades industries around here.

Edited by SewWhat?
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greenbeanmama

My brother-in-law is a truck driver. He has long days but he's home every night. His wife is a store manager at Walgreens.

Arguably, though, she shouldn't have been made a manager due to corporate policy that says store managers should have a four-year degree. We've got friends in Minnesota where the husband is the assistant manager at Walgreens, and two college classes are what's holding him back from having his own store to manage. Obviously, they make exceptions sometimes.

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SewWhat?
20 minutes ago, greenbeanmama said:

My brother-in-law is a truck driver. He has long days but he's home every night. His wife is a store manager at Walgreens.

Arguably, though, she shouldn't have been made a manager due to corporate policy that says store managers should have a four-year degree. We've got friends in Minnesota where the husband is the assistant manager at Walgreens, and two college classes are what's holding him back from having his own store to manage. Obviously, they make exceptions sometimes.

One of hubby's brothers and also hubby's BFF are over the road truck drivers.They are only home about 2-3d/w. His BFF has moved companies many times, I'm guessing he won't have much of a retirement built up. HIs brother has been with the same company many years, but they had financial issues so they are rebuilding the pension system, which means his brother can't retire as early as he'd hoped.

Companies need to specifically look at their employees. No reason a person without a degree who has worked their way up in the company can't do the job of manager. Clearly they know the business if they've been in and worked up for  a long time.

That's part of the issue in this country. Jobs that didn't need degrees even just 10y ago do now. It's ridiculous, and it's also driven up college costs because now more people think they need a degree. When really, there are plenty of non-degree jobs around too. There are shortages in trades across the country because of the change in mindset.

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Bendxap
1 hour ago, SewWhat? said:

What is the cultural norms for your hubby though regarding schooling?

His home community really respects schooling and education. When he finished 6th grade (highest level in town at that time), he had to go somewhere else to continue school. His parents arranged, through their pastor, for him to live with and be a servant for a family in exchange for time and school stuff to be able to go to school. (This was a very normal way of doing things.) 

Now there are schools in town through 9th grade, but again, if a kid wants more than that, he has to go somewhere else. And often the temptations of somewhere else are huge, whether it's drink or work to make money or going "north" (to the US) or whatever, take their toll and many don't go any further. Another reason some kids don't continue with school is that they get married. (The legal age right now, even with parents' consent, is 18 but in his hometown it's not unusual especially for girls, to get married as young as 15.)

(For what it's worth: even though his hometown is large--about 7,000 people--there has been a road to the community for less than 40 years. When I started visiting there in 1987, once you turned off the Pan-Am highway, you had to drive through a river, if it was low enough to drive through. Then there was a dirt road for about an hour and a half, and then it was another 3 to 4 hours hiking in the mountains to get to his hometown. And all that took a toll on the teachers too.)

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SewWhat?
28 minutes ago, Bendxap said:

His home community really respects schooling and education. When he finished 6th grade (highest level in town at that time), he had to go somewhere else to continue school. His parents arranged, through their pastor, for him to live with and be a servant for a family in exchange for time and school stuff to be able to go to school. (This was a very normal way of doing things.) 

Now there are schools in town through 9th grade, but again, if a kid wants more than that, he has to go somewhere else. And often the temptations of somewhere else are huge, whether it's drink or work to make money or going "north" (to the US) or whatever, take their toll and many don't go any further. Another reason some kids don't continue with school is that they get married. (The legal age right now, even with parents' consent, is 18 but in his hometown it's not unusual especially for girls, to get married as young as 15.)

(For what it's worth: even though his hometown is large--about 7,000 people--there has been a road to the community for less than 40 years. When I started visiting there in 1987, once you turned off the Pan-Am highway, you had to drive through a river, if it was low enough to drive through. Then there was a dirt road for about an hour and a half, and then it was another 3 to 4 hours hiking in the mountains to get to his hometown. And all that took a toll on the teachers too.)

That's pretty much what I figured when you said he'd originally not gone past jrhi. It's more of an accomplishment to some to get a college degree than for others for sure!

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Bendxap
32 minutes ago, SewWhat? said:

That's pretty much what I figured when you said he'd originally not gone past jrhi. It's more of an accomplishment to some to get a college degree than for others for sure!

Actually I misspoke. He finished jr hi when he was working with me as my language teacher. He finished high school after we were married a year or two.

He hadn't finished jr hi when he started working with me (he was 17 then) because he'd moved to Mexico City to live with a couple of his siblings. He started going to jr hi there but his brother was a bad influence and took him drinking after every pay check. So he quit school, started working and drinking--yeah, all before he was 17.

So when he started jr hi at 17, he was the "old man" for all the 13 to 15 year olds. He wasn't much taller than the rest so that helped him not be *that* different. :)  But as people have mentioned on this and other threads, if you don't want to study, nothing will make you do it, and if you do want to study, nothing will hold you back.

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SewWhat?
14 minutes ago, Bendxap said:

Actually I misspoke. He finished jr hi when he was working with me as my language teacher. He finished high school after we were married a year or two.

He hadn't finished jr hi when he started working with me (he was 17 then) because he'd moved to Mexico City to live with a couple of his siblings. He started going to jr hi there but his brother was a bad influence and took him drinking after every pay check. So he quit school, started working and drinking--yeah, all before he was 17.

So when he started jr hi at 17, he was the "old man" for all the 13 to 15 year olds. He wasn't much taller than the rest so that helped him not be *that* different. :)  But as people have mentioned on this and other threads, if you don't want to study, nothing will make you do it, and if you do want to study, nothing will hold you back.

Sounds like some inner-city areas in the US too, ie Gary nearby me... 

Some kids make it out by sheer determination though :)

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Gilead
41 minutes ago, SewWhat? said:

Sounds like some inner-city areas in the US too, ie Gary nearby me... 

Some kids make it out by sheer determination though :)

Yes, I have a friend who made it out of south Philadelphia by going straight into the Navy. He became a documentation specialist (on-the-job training only) and then after 10 years turned that into a private sector job in technical writing and documentation. But these days if you want to go into technical writing you do typically need a BA, and often not just one in English but more tightly focused on technical writing. The field has really changed, and of course you have to keep up with the latest publishing software as well. Having been out of the field for more than 20 years, I am so far behind that I can't even see the dust cloud, LOL.

 

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SewWhat?
2 hours ago, Gilead said:

Yes, I have a friend who made it out of south Philadelphia by going straight into the Navy. He became a documentation specialist (on-the-job training only) and then after 10 years turned that into a private sector job in technical writing and documentation. But these days if you want to go into technical writing you do typically need a BA, and often not just one in English but more tightly focused on technical writing. The field has really changed, and of course you have to keep up with the latest publishing software as well. Having been out of the field for more than 20 years, I am so far behind that I can't even see the dust cloud, LOL.

 

Sophie wants to get into illustration and she wants to her novels published. She's going to need to keep up with the times too if she wants to work steadily. 

Some things are easier than others to jump in and out of that's for sure!

Even hubby has to keep up with technology because the garbage trucks he's currently working on in his company are WAY digital compared to 10y ago!! He hates that part of the job. He'd rather just work on a normal diesel engine. LOL

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Gilead
21 hours ago, SewWhat? said:

Sophie wants to get into illustration and she wants to her novels published. She's going to need to keep up with the times too if she wants to work steadily. 

Some things are easier than others to jump in and out of that's for sure!

Even hubby has to keep up with technology because the garbage trucks he's currently working on in his company are WAY digital compared to 10y ago!! He hates that part of the job. He'd rather just work on a normal diesel engine. LOL

My oldest has a BFA....she wanted to do illustration. So, now she's going back to get more graphic design skills so she can find a "regular job" to support her art. She was telling me just this week how so many of her quite talented fellow grads are struggling to find ways to DO art to support themselves, except for the ones who've found animation jobs or had an internship in game design. But they're pretty few and far between.

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SewWhat?
47 minutes ago, Gilead said:

My oldest has a BFA....she wanted to do illustration. So, now she's going back to get more graphic design skills so she can find a "regular job" to support her art. She was telling me just this week how so many of her quite talented fellow grads are struggling to find ways to DO art to support themselves, except for the ones who've found animation jobs or had an internship in game design. But they're pretty few and far between.

Oh we've discussed this reality many times believe me! But, my own mom was SUCH a Debbie Downer regarding the dreams of mine and my younger brother that I vowed to never ever tell my kids they can't/shouldn't go for their dreams. I told them they still need to be smart though, such as I'm not going to cosign a loan agreement for an art institute if the price is ridiculous. I've told her she's got to understand that she may not be able to afford an illustration degree, she may have to settle for a more general fine arts degree. (afford meaning payout related to income potential and scholarships obtained)  She can get one focusing on painting/drawing at IUSB, but not illustration. She also wants to write and could get some sort of double major. She's young enough she believes the website when it says they can help you fnd a job. She's had commissions already so she knows she CAN sell her art, but to live off the income? She knows that's a long-shot. She knows she'll need a 'real' job to pay the bills, but she's thinking an illustration degree would accomplish that. I"m going to show her your post.

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Gilead
41 minutes ago, SewWhat? said:

Oh we've discussed this reality many times believe me! But, my own mom was SUCH a Debbie Downer regarding the dreams of mine and my younger brother that I vowed to never ever tell my kids they can't/shouldn't go for their dreams. I told them they still need to be smart though, such as I'm not going to cosign a loan agreement for an art institute if the price is ridiculous. I've told her she's got to understand that she may not be able to afford an illustration degree, she may have to settle for a more general fine arts degree. (afford meaning payout related to income potential and scholarships obtained)  She can get one focusing on painting/drawing at IUSB, but not illustration. She also wants to write and could get some sort of double major. She's young enough she believes the website when it says they can help you fnd a job. She's had commissions already so she knows she CAN sell her art, but to live off the income? She knows that's a long-shot. She knows she'll need a 'real' job to pay the bills, but she's thinking an illustration degree would accomplish that. I"m going to show her your post.

Oldest dd has sold some stuff too, but not much, tried fan art for WonderCon and didn't sell much, tried to find portrait clients but.... And now her job combined with some medical issues keeps her very busy and tired. Just doing the graphic design class @ CC this summer may be the most she can manage and she hopes to be able to hunt for a better paying job after that. She's diligently paying on her student loans (which aren't much compared to some), and that also really limits her options and keeps her driving a 1994 Corolla with one working door....

Youngest dd is also pretty gifted in art but she has her sights set on graphic design/general ed at CC, studio art and secondary credential @ local state U. It seems a much more practical approach. Right now she's very excited that she's getting paid to work a summer art daycamp (by a friend) and maybe to do a bedroom wall mural.

Illustration is almost all a "gig economy" job these days, meaning contract work, no benefits. Not something my dd w/medical issues feels she can sustain. OTOH, because it is contract work, if you are good and smart about getting your work out there, you can get jobs just based on your portfolio and how you price yourself.

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SewWhat?
14 minutes ago, Gilead said:

Oldest dd has sold some stuff too, but not much, tried fan art for WonderCon and didn't sell much, tried to find portrait clients but.... And now her job combined with some medical issues keeps her very busy and tired. Just doing the graphic design class @ CC this summer may be the most she can manage and she hopes to be able to hunt for a better paying job after that. She's diligently paying on her student loans (which aren't much compared to some), and that also really limits her options and keeps her driving a 1994 Corolla with one working door....

Youngest dd is also pretty gifted in art but she has her sights set on graphic design/general ed at CC, studio art and secondary credential @ local state U. It seems a much more practical approach.

Illustration is almost all a "gig economy" job these days, meaning contract work, no benefits. Not something my dd w/medical issues feels she can sustain.

Life is so hard to work out isn't it? LOL Hardly anything is a guarantee.

Heck, even at my age I"m not sure what I want to do now that my baby is graduating and I probably should work again. I don't know what I"ll do yet, probably department store type work. I was blessed enough to be able to not work while I've been homeschooling the kids these past 12 years.  I've done survey sites to help pay for birthdays and Christmas though.

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Bendxap
4 hours ago, SewWhat? said:

Oh we've discussed this reality many times believe me! But, my own mom was SUCH a Debbie Downer regarding the dreams of mine and my younger brother that I vowed to never ever tell my kids they can't/shouldn't go for their dreams. I told them they still need to be smart though, such as I'm not going to cosign a loan agreement for an art institute if the price is ridiculous. I've told her she's got to understand that she may not be able to afford an illustration degree, she may have to settle for a more general fine arts degree. (afford meaning payout related to income potential and scholarships obtained)  She can get one focusing on painting/drawing at IUSB, but not illustration. She also wants to write and could get some sort of double major. She's young enough she believes the website when it says they can help you fnd a job. She's had commissions already so she knows she CAN sell her art, but to live off the income? She knows that's a long-shot. She knows she'll need a 'real' job to pay the bills, but she's thinking an illustration degree would accomplish that. I"m going to show her your post.

And sometimes a "real" job can lead into a real job in the desired profession. MudLove, the little company that Older works for as the photography (which is what he really wants to do), was looking for someone to work in production, you know, making those cute bands and stuff. Older wasn't particularly thrilled about applying and even after he started work there, had a hard time because the rest of the team had been friends for years. Breaking into a clique... But he stuck it out, because the graphic design assistant (his other major) and when the photographer left, Older got the job.

It's a real job but it doesn't pay enough to be a realistic "forever" job. A friend of his just quit there because she just couldn't make it on her salary. Older is very frugal and budgets himself but the last I heard, he's thinking of one more year there and then looking for something else that pays better.

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Gilead

I keep debating about working -- youngest doesn't need me much but needs transport and I am teaching a wee bit @ co-op, almost enough to cover tuition for other classes. But I'll be 62 this year and just thinking about a job where I stand all day or where I need up-to-the-minute computer skills (like p/t social media stuff) exhausts me. But if I don't find something else to do I will turn into a hermit, and an unhappy one. Transitions are challenging.

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heartofjoy

We don't have a bunch of college degrees in our family.

Dh has worked in the oilfield as a snubber (as opposed to drilling or fracking), a crane operator, a refinery (making over 6 figures by year 7), and now he's a firefighter (just barely making close to 6 figures by year 10). We would have been better off financially if he kept working at the refinery, but it was soul sucking for him. His dad, uncle, brother and grandfather all work/ed there though and didn't have problems with it. My dh likes learning new things. He's added a side business: home inspection.

Real estate and home inspection and mortgage lending are all things you can do in Texas without a degree.

My oldest dd graduated last year and started cosmetology school last fall, but changed her mind. She's still figuring out her options.

Her boyfriend has done plumbing, selling insurance, working on cars, and now working for a company that sells gas station dispensaries. He's making good money and taking cc classes online.

My brother manages a fast food restaurant. He is divorced, lives cheaply, and pays child support.

My dad was an estimator for a construction company before he retried. Not sure if that would be a degree nowadays. He's always lived very frugally, and I'm guessing he has substantial savings.

My sil works for a legal firm as a secretary, but she's so smart and so good at what she does, that they pay her crazy money. She went to cc for court reporting, but wasn't fast enough and dropped out.

My bil is working for an insurance company. Not exactly sure what he does. He's not supporting a family yet but seems to live well.

Mil did secretarial work for many years.

I think there are jobs out there if you are willing to start at the bottom and work hard.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

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SewWhat?
3 hours ago, Gilead said:

I keep debating about working -- youngest doesn't need me much but needs transport and I am teaching a wee bit @ co-op, almost enough to cover tuition for other classes. But I'll be 62 this year and just thinking about a job where I stand all day or where I need up-to-the-minute computer skills (like p/t social media stuff) exhausts me. But if I don't find something else to do I will turn into a hermit, and an unhappy one. Transitions are challenging.

I'm 46yo. I"ve got a circulation issue in one foot and have a weak knee, but I hope I can do something like Michael's or Hobby Lobby :)

2 hours ago, heartofjoy said:

We don't have a bunch of college degrees in our family.

Dh has worked in the oilfield as a snubber (as opposed to drilling or fracking), a crane operator, a refinery (making over 6 figures by year 7), and now he's a firefighter (just barely making close to 6 figures by year 10). We would have been better off financially if he kept working at the refinery, but it was soul sucking for him. His dad, uncle, brother and grandfather all work/ed there though and didn't have problems with it. My dh likes learning new things. He's added a side business: home inspection.

Real estate and home inspection and mortgage lending are all things you can do in Texas without a degree.

My oldest dd graduated last year and started cosmetology school last fall, but changed her mind. She's still figuring out her options.

Her boyfriend has done plumbing, selling insurance, working on cars, and now working for a company that sells gas station dispensaries. He's making good money and taking cc classes online.

My brother manages a fast food restaurant. He is divorced, lives cheaply, and pays child support.

My dad was an estimator for a construction company before he retried. Not sure if that would be a degree nowadays. He's always lived very frugally, and I'm guessing he has substantial savings.

My sil works for a legal firm as a secretary, but she's so smart and so good at what she does, that they pay her crazy money. She went to cc for court reporting, but wasn't fast enough and dropped out.

My bil is working for an insurance company. Not exactly sure what he does. He's not supporting a family yet but seems to live well.

Mil did secretarial work for many years.

I think there are jobs out there if you are willing to start at the bottom and work hard.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
 

I think you can work your way up too, but it's harder these days with the crazy for college degrees for jobs you never needed them for before around 10y ago or so. It's crazy.

But, yes, there ARE lots of jobs to be had without degrees for sure!

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Blessed by His grace

I recently listened to a few workshops that Lee Binz hosted. Dr. Jay Wile did one called "Advice for Students Headed Off to College."  He started the workshop off by emphasizing there are only two reasons to go to college. His first reason: you simply love to learn. His second reason: you need the degree for a specific career. Dr. Dale Callahan also did a few workshops. He also emphasized that college wasn't necessary and that many jobs today do not need a college degree. His workshop on finding your calling was excellent. I'm not sure if you can still access these workshops; I found them helpful.

I think it's interesting that both Dr. Wile and Dr. Callahan have PhDs, both are/were university professors, and both advise students to only go to college for the above reasons. 

              

Edited by Blessed by His grace
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Hauxa Mom
5 hours ago, SewWhat? said:

I'm 46yo. I"ve got a circulation issue in one foot and have a weak knee, but I hope I can do something like Michael's or Hobby Lobby :)

LOL, if I ever had a job in either of those two places you know where my paycheck would get spent! Too much temptation at either of those stores! ;)

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SewWhat?
6 hours ago, Blessed by His grace said:

I recently listened to a few workshops that Lee Binz hosted. Dr. Jay Wile did one called "Advice for Students Headed Off to College."  He started the workshop off by emphasizing there are only two reasons to go to college. His first reason: you simply love to learn. His second reason: you need the degree for a specific career. Dr. Dale Callahan also did a few workshops. He also emphasized that college wasn't necessary and that many jobs today do not need a college degree. His workshop on finding your calling was excellent. I'm not sure if you can still access these workshops; I found them helpful.

I think it's interesting that both Dr. Wile and Dr. Callahan have PhDs, both are/were university professors, and both advise students to only go to college for the above reasons. 

              

I think I disagree about going 'just' to learn. It's WAY too expensive for that. You can learn in other ways than spending that kind of money.

I've read about a couple that has about $100K in college debt, and many classes were just for fun, not to further a degree. Ridiculous in my opinion.

5 hours ago, Hauxa Mom said:

LOL, if I ever had a job in either of those two places you know where my paycheck would get spent! Too much temptation at either of those stores! ;)

Oh it'll go to yarn and fabric... LOL!

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northwestmom
On 4/20/2018 at 12:08 PM, Bendxap said:

But as people have mentioned on this and other threads, if you don't want to study, nothing will make you do it, and if you do want to study, nothing will hold you back.

This! Of course the trouble is that many kids don't know yet what group they're in.

9 hours ago, Blessed by His grace said:

I recently listened to a few workshops that Lee Binz hosted. Dr. Jay Wile did one called "Advice for Students Headed Off to College."  He started the workshop off by emphasizing there are only two reasons to go to college. His first reason: you simply love to learn. His second reason: you need the degree for a specific career. Dr. Dale Callahan also did a few workshops. He also emphasized that college wasn't necessary and that many jobs today do not need a college degree. His workshop on finding your calling was excellent. I'm not sure if you can still access these workshops; I found them helpful.

I think it's interesting that both Dr. Wile and Dr. Callahan have PhDs, both are/were university professors, and both advise students to only go to college for the above reasons. 

              

Dr. Wile's two reasons above are good reasons to go to college, but not the ONLY reasons to go.

Dr. Callahan is being misleading in my opinion. College IS necessary for some jobs, and while there are many jobs that don't need a degree, there are other cases where a degree can be a big benefit.

3 hours ago, SewWhat? said:

I think I disagree about going 'just' to learn. It's WAY too expensive for that. You can learn in other ways than spending that kind of money.

Not always.

My oldest got her degree for basically nothing. Our income at the time was low, family size high, she lived at home, and with scholarships and grants she often had extra that the college gave to her in cash. I know people who have the cash to easily pay for their kids' college and are very happy to do so (as long as the kids are passing their classes). This is even though one of the kids does not currently have a burning desire for any particular major or career path...she's still doing well and enjoying it. I realize that many people don't have these options. But a reasonable amount of college debt is not always terrible.

The thing that really upsets me is when people say you HAVE to go to college...and when people that say it is usually a waste. Neither case is always true. Yes, kids are often pushed when it is a mistake. Our state had a campaign pushing EVERY high school graduate to "Go On" to college. Ridiculous, of course.

But what is equally sad to me is people (often homeschoolers) who push in the other way with excuses why kids shouldn't go to college, often seeming to disregard what is best for the student. In my circle, sometimes the reasons given for not going are a thinly disguised way to prevent people from moving on with their lives in the direction they want to pursue. There's far too many controlling parents who use homeschooling and a push against college as a way to control even their adult children. That's why sometimes I get steamed up reading articles about how going to college is dumb.

Now, I know that's not where you're coming from Rebecca. But I'd like to see kids really supported with help in finding out what would be best for them, realistically, but still allowing them some freedom to dream while they're young.

 

But, back to your original question...my husband worked years in lumber mills and in the logging industry. He then took a very short course to get his commercial driver's license and drove locally. After gaining a few years experience, he now makes a pretty decent living driving a fuel truck. (He doesn't use his college degree. I haven't yet used my degree, but I'm mighty happy I have it.)

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SewWhat?
40 minutes ago, northwestmom said:

This! Of course the trouble is that many kids don't know yet what group they're in.

Dr. Wile's two reasons above are good reasons to go to college, but not the ONLY reasons to go.

Dr. Callahan is being misleading in my opinion. College IS necessary for some jobs, and while there are many jobs that don't need a degree, there are other cases where a degree can be a big benefit.

Not always.

My oldest got her degree for basically nothing. Our income at the time was low, family size high, she lived at home, and with scholarships and grants she often had extra that the college gave to her in cash. I know people who have the cash to easily pay for their kids' college and are very happy to do so (as long as the kids are passing their classes). This is even though one of the kids does not currently have a burning desire for any particular major or career path...she's still doing well and enjoying it. I realize that many people don't have these options. But a reasonable amount of college debt is not always terrible.

The thing that really upsets me is when people say you HAVE to go to college...and when people that say it is usually a waste. Neither case is always true. Yes, kids are often pushed when it is a mistake. Our state had a campaign pushing EVERY high school graduate to "Go On" to college. Ridiculous, of course.

But what is equally sad to me is people (often homeschoolers) who push in the other way with excuses why kids shouldn't go to college, often seeming to disregard what is best for the student. In my circle, sometimes the reasons given for not going are a thinly disguised way to prevent people from moving on with their lives in the direction they want to pursue. There's far too many controlling parents who use homeschooling and a push against college as a way to control even their adult children. That's why sometimes I get steamed up reading articles about how going to college is dumb.

Now, I know that's not where you're coming from Rebecca. But I'd like to see kids really supported with help in finding out what would be best for them, realistically, but still allowing them some freedom to dream while they're young.

 

But, back to your original question...my husband worked years in lumber mills and in the logging industry. He then took a very short course to get his commercial driver's license and drove locally. After gaining a few years experience, he now makes a pretty decent living driving a fuel truck. (He doesn't use his college degree. I haven't yet used my degree, but I'm mighty happy I have it.)

I sooo agree with your anger on those who force their kids into college. It's sad that the child couldn't make their own decision about their future.

I also have seen it with public school parents, so it's not homeschool issue. Though, I've seen it the way you say for sure. If we REALLY want what's best for our kids we need to listen to them! It may not be what we'd choose, but then again, who of us are doing what our parents chose for us? Guessing not many... I know I was miserable and dropped out of what my mom pushed me into. My younger brother was miserable not being supported in what he would have loved to do, but never did. My older brother is probably the only one who made my parents proud as far as job goes.

Nice that some kids can go to college for free. We're in the block of those who make too much for much financial help, but also can't afford to pay for it without taking on a 2nd mortgage. And frankly even if we could afford to pay for classes I wouldn't be paying for classes that are taken just for fun. If they want to take classes just for fun they can pay for it. (And can't you apply to audit the class? Sit in and learn, but not earn credit. I mean, if the purpose IS 'just' to learn then they don't need to earn credits and pay the money.) IF I were really in a position to pay for their college it'd be something going toward a degree of their choice that can make money. Not something like underwater basketweaving or Studies in Beyonce, if you understand what I'm saying... My daughter wants to get an arts degree. My mom has said to me I don't know how many times she can't see the purpose of it. I tell her, we'll, people CAN make money in it and it's what she wants to do so I'm not about to tell her she can't. (and then think in my head, like you did for younger brother) But classes just for the sake of learning something, no. They can pay for that.

 

My hubby has to have a CDL as well, so he can drive the garbage trucks around when needed as part of his mechanic job. 

 

EDITED to add:

You've got a key point there with REASONABLE debt. $100k in debt when many of the classes were taken for fun is ridiculous. 

That's something I'm discussing over and over with my dd right now since she wants to go to an art institute after her year in a state school. I told her IF she can get enough funding GREAT! If not.... it's stupid to take on $80000 in debt for a degree that has an income potential of $20k/y.

Edited by SewWhat?

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northwestmom
32 minutes ago, SewWhat? said:

I sooo agree with your anger on those who force their kids into college. It's sad that the child couldn't make their own decision about their future.

You've misunderstood me somewhere...I have far greater anger with parents who try to prevent their kids from going to college.

I also have seen it with public school parents, so it's not homeschool issue. Though, I've seen it the way you say for sure. If we REALLY want what's best for our kids we need to listen to them! It may not be what we'd choose, but then again, who of us are doing what our parents chose for us? Guessing not many... I know I was miserable and dropped out of what my mom pushed me into. My younger brother was miserable not being supported in what he would have loved to do, but never did. My older brother is probably the only one who made my parents proud as far as job goes.

Nice that some kids can go to college for free. We're in the block of those who make too much for much financial help, but also can't afford to pay for it without taking on a 2nd mortgage. And frankly even if we could afford to pay for classes I wouldn't be paying for classes that are taken just for fun.  (Depends on what you mean by fun. And by how much disposable income you have to spare. All learning doesn't have to be for the purpose of making more $$ someday.) If they want to take classes just for fun they can pay for it. (And can't you apply to audit the class? Sit in and learn, but not earn credit. I mean, if the purpose IS 'just' to learn then they don't need to earn credits and pay the money.) IF I were really in a position to pay for their college it'd be something going toward a degree of their choice that can make money. Not something like underwater basketweaving or Studies in Beyonce, if you understand what I'm saying... (Yes, I agree those are silly!) My daughter wants to get an arts degree. My mom has said to me I don't know how many times she can't see the purpose of it. I tell her, we'll, people CAN make money in it and it's what she wants to do so I'm not about to tell her she can't. (and then think in my head, like you did for younger brother) But classes just for the sake of learning something, no. They can pay for that.

 

My hubby has to have a CDL as well, so he can drive the garbage trucks around when needed as part of his mechanic job. 

 

EDITED to add:

You've got a key point there with REASONABLE debt. $100k in debt when many of the classes were taken for fun is ridiculous. 

That's something I'm discussing over and over with my dd right now since she wants to go to an art institute after her year in a state school. I told her IF she can get enough funding GREAT! If not.... it's stupid to take on $80000 in debt for a degree that has an income potential of $20k/y.

It wouldn't be stupid to take on $80,000 debt for an art degree, just not necessarily wise. But age 18-20 isn't necessarily a time of greatest reasoning ability LOL.

People tend to think of college as training for a career in order to make money, but traditionally higher education was often more for the purpose of general knowledge, hence the traditional liberal arts degree. From the Merriam-Webster website:

Definition of liberal arts

1 : the medieval studies comprising the trivium and quadrivium

2 : college or university studies (such as language, philosophy, literature, abstract science) intended to provide chiefly general knowledge and to develop general intellectual capacities (such as reason and judgment) as opposed to professional or vocational skills

Why do we call the liberal arts "liberal"?

The liberal in liberal arts, a cornerstone of the education of so many, has very little to do with political leanings; its roots can be traced to the Latin word liber, meaning “free, unrestricted.” Our language took the term from the Latin liberales artes, which described the education given to freeman and members of the upper classes, and involved training in the mind (grammar, logic, geometry, etc.). The lower classes were educated in the servile arts, which were mechanical or occupational in nature. The phrase liberal arts has been part of our language for a very long time, with use dating back to the 14th century.

 

And from the Princeton University website:

What Does Liberal Arts Mean?

A liberal arts education offers an expansive intellectual grounding in all kinds of humanistic inquiry.

By exploring issues, ideas and methods across the humanities and the arts, and the natural and social sciences, you will learn to read critically, write cogently and think broadly. These skills will elevate your conversations in the classroom and strengthen your social and cultural analysis; they will cultivate the tools necessary to allow you to navigate the world’s most complex issues.

A liberal arts education challenges you to consider not only how to solve problems, but also trains you to ask which problems to solve and why, preparing you for positions of leadership and a life of service to the nation and all of humanity. We provide a liberal arts education to all of our undergraduates, including those who major in engineering.

As President Christopher Eisgruber, class of 1983, stated in his 2013 installation address: “[A] liberal arts education is a vital foundation for both individual flourishing and the well-being of our society.”

 

Of course these days most average people cannot afford to take on huge debt for a liberal arts degree without being able to move into a good career directly afterwards. But that doesn't mean that that type of study is without value.

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SewWhat?
18 minutes ago, northwestmom said:

It wouldn't be stupid to take on $80,000 debt for an art degree, just not necessarily wise. But age 18-20 isn't necessarily a time of greatest reasoning ability LOL.

People tend to think of college as training for a career in order to make money, but traditionally higher education was often more for the purpose of general knowledge, hence the traditional liberal arts degree. From the Merriam-Webster website:

 

Of course these days most average people cannot afford to take on huge debt for a liberal arts degree without being able to move into a good career directly afterwards. But that doesn't mean that that type of study is without value.

I guess I just disagree. Getting a degree just to get a degree, and never using it, is a waste of money imo. You can audit the classes and not spend the money if it's really learning 'just' for learning. Spending money in order to later earn money makes sense to me. 

I'm not sure I agree that traditionally higher education was more for the purpose of general knowledge. From what I've read it's always more been for the purpose of a career. Scrimping and sacrifice by the family so one member can earn the degree and rise the family out of the low-income level.

Stupid or 'not wise' are pretty much the same thing. Now,  some debt taken on for a dental hygienist BS, that's more worth it. They start off at around $65k/y. The art institute my dd wants to go to is $36k/y tuition plus $10k/y for R&B. Spending near $200k for an art degree really is the definition of stupid when potential income with the degree 'might' be $50k/y, IF you're extremely lucky. I've read that your total accumulated college debt should not total more than your yearly income potential.  So, college debt over 4y totalling $50k would be on par for a job that earns $50k/y. Money spent should align with income potential. Course, if you're going to an expensive college and get lots of scholarship and aren't actually accumulating all that debt then you're ok, as long as your total 4y debt isn't more than your yearly income potential.

Now, I do agree that parents who discourage their kids from college in general is sad, thinking about my own younger brother. But I wouldn't encourage going 'just' to be going or going for underwater basket weaving, just like I wouldn't support $200k debt for a career with income potential of a 1/4th that. I have encouraged dd to apply! And apply for financial aid!! I told her if she gets enough to make it affordable then fantastic!! 

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Gilead

I don't think education is ever wasted. I have an AA, two BAs and a certificate....I'm not "using" those in a career just now -- but I've taught a bunch of homeschool kids in writing and thinking (not just my own), am secretary for our AHG troop, and I use writing skills to offer encouragement to people in my daily life. My kids have benefited not just from specific topics I studied in college but from the habits and love of learning. 

I am one of those who insist my kids go to college -- community college -- and get a transfer AA. That means they live @ home rent free and save $ while they study and if they want to quit after the 2-year degree they can. (Well, one of mine's making it a 4-year AA degree.) And they won't have any debt at that point. We learned this approach AFTER my oldest went to art college, but at least she graduated with less debt than a reasonable year's salary, and only because she basically lived for free with friends while a full-time student. Otherwise, no stinkin' way. And she's not using that degree right now, but she will and she knows she has it, can do it, and can build on it for her future. My 2nd child graduated debt free with a B.A. and actually has a f/t job in his field. We're thrilled. Child #3 will stop at an AA, and child #4 will probably get a secondary teaching credential in art (hopefully debt free, too, but she'll probably get zero financial aid so it will be harder.)

Life is unpredictable. I want my kids to launch into adulthood with lots of possibilities, the more the better, and as few restrictions (financial and otherwise) as we can manage. Some kids KNOW what they want to do. Some take time to figure it out but when they do it fits. And some will make the most of any opportunity that comes. My goal is to give them as many tools as possible, and education is one of those, so is work ethic, honesty, good character...well, I'm sure you have your own list.

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SewWhat?
39 minutes ago, Gilead said:

I don't think education is ever wasted. I have an AA, two BAs and a certificate....I'm not "using" those in a career just now -- but I've taught a bunch of homeschool kids in writing and thinking (not just my own), am secretary for our AHG troop, and I use writing skills to offer encouragement to people in my daily life. My kids have benefited not just from specific topics I studied in college but from the habits and love of learning. 

I am one of those who insist my kids go to college -- community college -- and get a transfer AA. That means they live @ home rent free and save $ while they study and if they want to quit after the 2-year degree they can. (Well, one of mine's making it a 4-year AA degree.) And they won't have any debt at that point. We learned this approach AFTER my oldest went to art college, but at least she graduated with less debt than a reasonable year's salary, and only because she basically lived for free with friends while a full-time student. Otherwise, no stinkin' way. And she's not using that degree right now, but she will and she knows she has it, can do it, and can build on it for her future. My 2nd child graduated debt free with a B.A. and actually has a f/t job in his field. We're thrilled. Child #3 will stop at an AA, and child #4 will probably get a secondary teaching credential in art (hopefully debt free, too, but she'll probably get zero financial aid so it will be harder.)

Life is unpredictable. I want my kids to launch into adulthood with lots of possibilities, the more the better, and as few restrictions (financial and otherwise) as we can manage. Some kids KNOW what they want to do. Some take time to figure it out but when they do it fits. And some will make the most of any opportunity that comes. My goal is to give them as many tools as possible, and education is one of those, so is work ethic, honesty, good character...well, I'm sure you have your own list.

The 'won't have any debt' isn't going to be true of all kids even living at home. Not everyone gets a full ride to college. Middle child lived at home but hardly got any scholarships.

If 'making' your kids get an AS worked for you that's great. I still don't think everyone should 'make' their kids do it. It would have been a complete disaster if we would have made oldest. He wouldn't have been able to pay for it, and if we had it would have been a total waste as he flunked out. It took him till finally age 25 and being in the Navy about 5y before he decided maybe he should take some college classes. He's got 2 classes left to earn an AS in general studies, which will help him applying for officer package. (he's been in the Navy 8y now) After that he'll go on to get a BS in business so he can run the office of his wife's future nurse practitioner office. (she currently has a BS and plans on going on for NP) That's their plan anyway... As you said, life is unpredictable!! He may stay in the Navy if he does indeed make officer, which would mean his wife would likely not open her own practice if moving around is always a possibility. Thankfully nursing is a job you can get anywhere.

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Gilead

I realize I totally derailed this thread, which was supposed to be about non-college jobs. I apologize.

I also do realize that just because the AA first path works for two of my kids doesn't mean it will work for every kid. I have seen the military be an excellent path forward for more than one young person who needed new challenges but didn't want college. I think the many pathways our kids choose are both humbling (to parental expectations, at least they have been to mine) and exciting in their variety.

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SewWhat?
17 minutes ago, Gilead said:

I realize I totally derailed this thread, which was supposed to be about non-college jobs. I apologize.

I also do realize that just because the AA first path works for two of my kids doesn't mean it will work for every kid. I have seen the military be an excellent path forward for more than one young person who needed new challenges but didn't want college. I think the many pathways our kids choose are both humbling (to parental expectations, at least they have been to mine) and exciting in their variety.

There are other threads going on the importance of college degrees. That's why I wanted to start this one, on non-college opportunities. And, to remind parents that kids do not 'have' to go to college in order to support a family. There are other paths. My non-college husband makes at least as much as my brother with a BS in industrial engineering.

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Countrymom9
7 hours ago, northwestmom said:

 

My oldest got her degree for basically nothing. Our income at the time was low, family size high, she lived at home, and with scholarships and grants she often had extra that the college gave to her in cash. 

The thing that really upsets me is when people say you HAVE to go to college...and when people that say it is usually a waste. Neither case is always true. Yes, kids are often pushed when it is a mistake. Our state had a campaign pushing EVERY high school graduate to "Go On" to college. Ridiculous, of course.

 There's far too many controlling parents who use homeschooling and a push against college as a way to control even their adult children. 


 

Some of ours have gotten lots of financial aid as well. I think ds17's entire course next year will be state-grant funded because it's at cc and our income is low. And yes, one of ours got the extra in cash. She put braces on her teeth with it. Now that she's a doctor, she's funding braces for dd22 voluntarily, more or less paying it forward. 

I really know no homeschoolers (or anyone else) who pushes against college for their kids, but I know far too many families for whom college isn't optional. IMO, kids who go to college without a career goal that requires college are wasting their time and money and usually don't benefit. I was one of those and knew lots of others. Because we feel that way, even if we were wealthy we would pay for college only for kids who had a career goal in mind. If one of them later figured out a goal that required college, we'd pay for it then. It's not wrong to work for a few years till you get your bearings.

Because we're not wealthy, we do steer our kids toward the mentality of finding the best bottom-line deal they can get at a college that's good in their field. We also steer them toward the idea that they can get a degree nontraditionally or go into a trade with our full approval. The only college decisions we would object to are choosing an expensive college expecting to fund it with loans, and going to college without a career-based goal. Learning for the sake of knowledge can be done without paying for it. Dh and I do it all the time and heartily recommend it.

 

Edited by Countrymom9

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northwestmom
6 hours ago, SewWhat? said:

I guess I just disagree. Getting a degree just to get a degree, and never using it, is a waste of money imo. You can audit the classes and not spend the money if it's really learning 'just' for learning. Spending money in order to later earn money makes sense to me. I understand that makes sense to you, and to me it makes sense to realize the non-monetary value that higher education provides in some cases.

I'm not sure I agree that traditionally higher education was more for the purpose of general knowledge.   I think it was to a much greater degree 100+ years ago than today. From what I've read it's always more been for the purpose of a career. Scrimping and sacrifice by the family so one member can earn the degree and rise the family out of the low-income level.

Stupid or 'not wise' are pretty much the same thing. "Stupid" is an insulting word. Now,  some debt taken on for a dental hygienist BS, that's more worth it. They start off at around $65k/y. The art institute my dd wants to go to is $36k/y tuition plus $10k/y for R&B. Spending near $200k for an art degree really is the definition of stupid when potential income with the degree 'might' be $50k/y, IF you're extremely lucky. I've read that your total accumulated college debt should not total more than your yearly income potential.  So, college debt over 4y totalling $50k would be on par for a job that earns $50k/y. Money spent should align with income potential. Course, if you're going to an expensive college and get lots of scholarship and aren't actually accumulating all that debt then you're ok, as long as your total 4y debt isn't more than your yearly income potential.

Now, I do agree that parents who discourage their kids from college in general is sad, thinking about my own younger brother. But I wouldn't encourage going 'just' to be going or going for underwater basket weaving, just like I wouldn't support $200k debt for a career with income potential of a 1/4th that. I have encouraged dd to apply! And apply for financial aid!! I told her if she gets enough to make it affordable then fantastic!! 

 

5 hours ago, Gilead said:

I don't think education is ever wasted. Yes! I have an AA, two BAs and a certificate....I'm not "using" those in a career just now -- but I've taught a bunch of homeschool kids in writing and thinking (not just my own), am secretary for our AHG troop, and I use writing skills to offer encouragement to people in my daily life. My kids have benefited not just from specific topics I studied in college but from the habits and love of learning. 

I am one of those who insist my kids go to college -- community college -- and get a transfer AA. That means they live @ home rent free and save $ while they study and if they want to quit after the 2-year degree they can. (Well, one of mine's making it a 4-year AA degree.) And they won't have any debt at that point. We learned this approach AFTER my oldest went to art college, but at least she graduated with less debt than a reasonable year's salary, and only because she basically lived for free with friends while a full-time student. Otherwise, no stinkin' way. And she's not using that degree right now, but she will and she knows she has it, can do it, and can build on it for her future. My 2nd child graduated debt free with a B.A. and actually has a f/t job in his field. We're thrilled. Child #3 will stop at an AA, and child #4 will probably get a secondary teaching credential in art (hopefully debt free, too, but she'll probably get zero financial aid so it will be harder.) Some kids need and want that push and it works great. DD3 does not want to go to college and resents anybody trying to talk her into it.

Life is unpredictable. I want my kids to launch into adulthood with lots of possibilities, the more the better, and as few restrictions (financial and otherwise) as we can manage. Some kids KNOW what they want to do. Some take time to figure it out but when they do it fits. And some will make the most of any opportunity that comes. My goal is to give them as many tools as possible, and education is one of those, so is work ethic, honesty, good character...well, I'm sure you have your own list.

 

4 hours ago, SewWhat? said:

There are other threads going on the importance of college degrees. That's why I wanted to start this one, on non-college opportunities. And, to remind parents that kids do not 'have' to go to college in order to support a family. There are other paths. My non-college husband makes at least as much as my brother with a BS in industrial engineering.

But the feeling I get is that you're biased against college and looking for ways to talk people out of it...I supposed I'm biased the other way LOL.

41 minutes ago, Countrymom9 said:

Some of ours have gotten lots of financial aid as well. I think ds17's entire course next year will be state-grant funded because it's at cc and our income is low. And yes, one of ours got the extra in cash. She put braces on her teeth with it. Now that she's a doctor, she's funding braces for dd22 voluntarily, more or less paying it forward. That's really nice!

I really know no homeschoolers (or anyone else) who pushes against college for their kids,  There's plenty in the Christian Patriarchy/Quiverfull movement, including families like the Duggars. There are many many many girls (grown women) who are not allowed to go to college or even leave their father's household. It's heartbreaking and partly why I get a little worked up over the subject of college.   but I know far too many families for whom college isn't optional. IMO, kids who go to college without a career goal that requires college are wasting their time and money and usually don't benefit. I was one of those and knew lots of others. Because we feel that way, even if we were wealthy we would pay for college only for kids who had a career goal in mind. If one of them later figured out a goal that required college, we'd pay for it then. It's not wrong to work for a few years till you get your bearings.

Because we're not wealthy, we do steer our kids toward the mentality of finding the best bottom-line deal they can get at a college that's good in their field. We also steer them toward the idea that they can get a degree nontraditionally or go into a trade with our full approval. The only college decisions we would object to are choosing an expensive college expecting to fund it with loans, and going to college without a career-based goal. Learning for the sake of knowledge can be done without paying for it. Dh and I do it all the time and heartily recommend it. Good points.

 

My own husband has worked very hard to try to prevent our kids from going to college...as I said above that's why I get worked up about it.

Edited by northwestmom
typos

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SewWhat?
51 minutes ago, Countrymom9 said:

Some of ours have gotten lots of financial aid as well. I think ds17's entire course next year will be state-grant funded because it's at cc and our income is low. And yes, one of ours got the extra in cash. She put braces on her teeth with it. Now that she's a doctor, she's funding braces for dd22 voluntarily, more or less paying it forward. 

I really know no homeschoolers (or anyone else) who pushes against college for their kids, but I know far too many families for whom college isn't optional. IMO, kids who go to college without a career goal that requires college are wasting their time and money and usually don't benefit. I was one of those and knew lots of others. Because we feel that way, even if we were wealthy we would pay for college only for kids who had a career goal in mind. If one of them later figured out a goal that required college, we'd pay for it then. It's not wrong to work for a few years till you get your bearings.

Because we're not wealthy, we do steer our kids toward the mentality of finding the best bottom-line deal they can get at a college that's good in their field. We also steer them toward the idea that they can get a degree nontraditionally or go into a trade with our full approval. The only college decisions we would object to are choosing an expensive college expecting to fund it with loans, and going to college without a career-based goal. Learning for the sake of knowledge can be done without paying for it. Dh and I do it all the time and heartily recommend it.

 

One non-traditional path to college is like my mom, who started working for a hospital and they paid for her nursing degree if she agreed to work for them for a certain number of years. Free college :) 

There are many places that do the same thing. My older brother was actually a senior project away from his BS when he dropped it all and still got a job in his field of study. A few years later they paid for him to finish his degree.

I heartily agree that there are other ways to education rather than spending money on it, esp with everything in the world online these days. That is, if you're learning 'just' to learn. Really, anything you could want to learn about is in books or on Google somewhere.

Now that I"m thinking about it I kind of think that people taking classes for the fun of it on scholarship are taking away money from those that would like to go to the school to learn a career, but can't because the money is taken up by those not serious about in a career path. It's so difficult to apply for colleges these days. They all have different deadlines for the scholarships and you need to get in there as soon as you can to get in line for the money.

23 minutes ago, northwestmom said:

 

 

But the feeling I get is that you're biased against college and looking for ways to talk people out of it...I supposed I'm biased the other way LOL.

My own husband has worked very hard to try to prevent our kids from going to college...as I said above that's why I get worked up about it.

100+ years ago college wasn't the financial strain it is now. There really is no comparison. How many times on these forums even have there been threads about the skyrocketing costs of higher education especially since now-a-days there are jobs that you need a degree for that you didn't even 10y ago. Plus the general feeling that college 'is' the path after high school now more than ever, rather than other paths, I feel is one of the reasons for the rising costs. They can, because people pay for it and think they need to, so colleges keep raising the prices. It's like a badge of honor or something, oh, I've got lots of college debt.

One article I googled:

What College Cost 100 Years Ago

Greg Daugherty,Sarina Finkelstein,Julia Bohan

Sep 02, 2015

A century ago, you could buy a first-class postage stamp for 2¢, a gallon of gas for 15¢, and a dozen eggs for 34¢. If those sound like bargains, consider this: A year’s tuition at Harvard would have run you just $150, while Stanford and many state universities charged nothing at all.

The difference is instructive to say the least: a 2,263% rise in the consumer price index over the past 100 years, but a staggering increase of 42,930%, on average, in tuition costs.

Here is a really good article about the rising costs, it also mentioned just how cheap it was 100y ago (the notation about 1870 says the same thing as the above article)

This thread is not about people who discourage their kids from going to college (Duggars and the like that you mentioned.) I'm not biased against college! I would love my kids to get degrees! I"m super excited oldest is actually taking classes and about  to earn his associates! 2nd son decided college wasn't for him after a mentally difficult year, but he's taking English as Second Language certification online right now instead. I actually wish he would have stayed in college and finished. Daughter has horrible anxiety and I'm terribly worried about how she'll do going away to college, but I'm super excited that she's going to try! (she's currently in counseling trying to learn coping skills)  I started this thread to talk about non-college careers and for some reason it turned into a college cheerleading pep rally. It's no wonder kids end up in college whether or not it's a good fit for them. (and why prices keep going up, supply and demand) They're bombarded on all sides by people assuming the next stop is college, period, including (and maybe especially) their parents. Not  much discussion of other options.

Anyone reading this thread who have kids who may not be a best fit for college IT IS OK. Really! Not every kid is college material right out of high school. Maybe later? Maybe never. It's OK! There are tons of jobs that earn more than enough money to raise a family. My husband fixes garbage trucks and earns enough that I was able to stay home homeschooling for the last 12y, only earning a little bit here and there and certainly nothing very steady (except the 2 1/2y I was a phlebotomist, which I only did because dh has had 2 spinal fusions and I thought I 'should' do something in order to earn money if he ever became disabled, but then once I did it I realized it's only minimum wage so I do kind of consider my phlebotomy certification a waste) My only method of income over the last 12y has been survey sites. 

I don't know why I"m seen as anti-college just because I wanted a discussion about non-college options. If I decide what I want to be when I grow  up I may end up in college again myself. Who knows... Just because someone wants to talk about one side of the coin does not make them anti-the other side.

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Countrymom9
1 hour ago, northwestmom said:

 

 

But the feeling I get is that you're biased against college and looking for ways to talk people out of it...I supposed I'm biased the other way LOL.

My own husband has worked very hard to try to prevent our kids from going to college...as I said above that's why I get worked up about it.

Ah, got it.

There's plenty in the Christian Patriarchy/Quiverfull movement, including families like the Duggars. There are many many many girls (grown women) who are not allowed to go to college or even leave their father's household. It's heartbreaking and partly why I get a little worked up over the subject of college.  I used to know a few people like that, but I thought that ideology had largely gone the way of the dinosaurs. I mean, my own church is quite conservative. Half or more of the families homeschool; we also have quite a few fairly large families....we might look similar in those respects, but no one there believes that about college or college for girls/women in particular. There was a church in our area that probably taught that (it was pretty dictatorial) but it had some abuse scandals and later closed, quite a few years back now.

Edited by Countrymom9

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home4learning

I really know no homeschoolers (or anyone else) who pushes against college for their kids

 

 

I *wish* this was true in our area. I know fewer families with college goals for their kids than families that do. I have to hunt them down to talk over options that keep our homeschooling rigorous enough to be considered college prep. There are the Classical Conversations people who pride themselves on their academic rigor and seem to expect their kids to excel just because. But beyond that, normal college bound homeschool families seem to not be the norm for us. Most families seem to want to avoid the potential high costs and are considering alternative options. CC might be one of those options but the bar seems set low around here. And that is just from an academic standpoint. I don’t hear much about trade School options either. I’m not really sure what many families think their kids will do after high school. They usually find their way though but four year college is definitely not the norm here.

 

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dwilterd

I think I'll make a s/o thread about college goals among those in your local homeschool/church community. 

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Countrymom9
15 minutes ago, dwilterd said:

I think I'll make a s/o thread about college goals among those in your local homeschool/church community. 

Sounds like another good discussion. :)

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Merry
On 4/20/2018 at 8:42 AM, SewWhat? said:

I'm not sure they're all college material.. 

Isn't it interesting how our culture views college? I know you meant nothing negative by this, but it's a sign of our culture that we don't say, "I'm not sure they're all trades material." We definitely have a predisposition to viewing college as the "leg up," instead of pointing out that some people aren't gifted in working with their hands or aren't mechanically inclined, and etc...!

DH and I both have degrees, so I couldn't really answer your initial question. But for my kids, I'm not 100% where they'll end up. DS will have his associate's this spring, but will then either take a gap year to save up for finishing somewhere, or consider a trade degree (he's looking at CNC programs--there's a good internship program through a local business and our CC).  Our only local 4-year option has very few "in person" type degrees, mostly online stuff, and that's just not a good match for ds. And until he really knows WHAT he'd like to do,  going away to a 4-year or even continuing here just wouldn't make sense. His associate's has been really helpful for exploring possibilities and also expanding his knowledge, so we do feel that's been very worthwhile. 

DD will probably get her RN and then go on to get a BSN. She's got her CNA license & hopes to work as a CNA this summer and to solidify her plans--she's still thinking it through.

My mom didn't have her degree when she and my dad married, but when he got sick with kidney disease and only had a few years left to live, she went back to get her teaching degree. She knew what she was interested in and what she'd be good at--and I think that's the main thing I want for my kids, whether it involves completing a 4-year degree, more, or not going that far. 

 

On 4/20/2018 at 1:11 PM, SewWhat? said:

That's part of the issue in this country. Jobs that didn't need degrees even just 10y ago do now. It's ridiculous, and it's also driven up college costs because now more people think they need a degree. 

It is ridiculous some of the things that now require a degree! I'm not so sure that's really the thing that's driving up college costs though, or at least not one of the biggest factors. Over and over I read that one of the biggest factors is the exponential increase in administrative positions. Administrative costs are driving some schools into bankruptcy even with the high tuition costs they charge. (I've even read of schools with as many administrative positions as they have teachers!) 

 

8 hours ago, Gilead said:

I don't think education is ever wasted.

I agree, I do think education is always "used" even if not directly in an occupation. I've always felt that college was an incredible growing/learning experience for me. And, so far, it's been really good for my kids too. I do think things have really changed though because of the costs, and that college can't just be an "assumption" the way I felt it was as I was growing up (assumed I would go--I paid my way). I too know some young people saddled with incredibly high student loans, and I can't see the wisdom in that. I think an education is worth working for if one wants or needs one, and that small, reasonable debt can be okay. I wish it could be more accessible as it was when we were young though.

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SewWhat?
9 hours ago, Merry said:

Isn't it interesting how our culture views college? I know you meant nothing negative by this, but it's a sign of our culture that we don't say, "I'm not sure they're all trades material." We definitely have a predisposition to viewing college as the "leg up," instead of pointing out that some people aren't gifted in working with their hands or aren't mechanically inclined, and etc...!

It is ridiculous some of the things that now require a degree! I'm not so sure that's really the thing that's driving up college costs though, or at least not one of the biggest factors. Over and over I read that one of the biggest factors is the exponential increase in administrative positions. Administrative costs are driving some schools into bankruptcy even with the high tuition costs they charge. (I've even read of schools with as many administrative positions as they have teachers!) 

I agree, I do think education is always "used" even if not directly in an occupation. I've always felt that college was an incredible growing/learning experience for me. And, so far, it's been really good for my kids too. I do think things have really changed though because of the costs, and that college can't just be an "assumption" the way I felt it was as I was growing up (assumed I would go--I paid my way). I too know some young people saddled with incredibly high student loans, and I can't see the wisdom in that. I think an education is worth working for if one wants or needs one, and that small, reasonable debt can be okay. I wish it could be more accessible as it was when we were young though.

I've actually said certain people aren't trades material too. Some are college material, some are trade material, some are neither. I don't mean that those I"m thinking of when I say they're not college material aren't smart. It means that college wouldn't be the best fit for them. Intelligence isn't the only thing to think of when deciding to go to college or not. Personality and interests, and even things like ADHD. My dh was a perfect fit for a trade because he's ADHD and learns best by doing, not reading and lectures. Oldest is 80% like him, good with his hands, has a hard time in class. Middle wouldn't know the first thing about how to do mechanics but he just absorbs everything he reads.  He's probably not trades material.

If they didn't make the application and scholarship process such a game administrative costs would go down. If they stopped sending out huge info packets to everyone multiple times regardless if they're interested in the college or not costs would go down. I've got other ideas but that's for another discussion... LOL Along with waste and ridiculous practices in public schools. They feed off eachother I think.

I did not grow up with the assumption that everyone goes to college. 

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Mazurka
10 hours ago, Merry said:

Administrative costs are driving some schools into bankruptcy even with the high tuition costs they charge. (I've even read of schools with as many administrative positions as they have teachers!) 

 

 

I've also read that costs have gone up due to the huge and increasing government presence in the financial aid process, along with the resultant increased requirements for schools where government dollars are accepted.  Don't have time to research that now, but it's another thing to consider.

59 minutes ago, SewWhat? said:

 

If they didn't make the application and scholarship process such a game administrative costs would go down. If they stopped sending out huge info packets to everyone multiple times regardless if they're interested in the college or not costs would go down. 

 

Yes, the games that are played contribute to the costs.  I think also that the pressure to have people from all demographics (not just race, but location, background, hooks, etc) plays into the college game.   It's not just about academics anymore.  When you have very smart kids who can't get into a school, and kids who are not as smart, but who are maybe from a state on the other side of the country, get accepted, that puts pressure on students and parents to "uniquify" themselves, sometimes in ridiculous ways.  (I know uniquify isn't a real word, lol.)

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SewWhat?
1 hour ago, Mazurka said:

I've also read that costs have gone up due to the huge and increasing government presence in the financial aid process, along with the resultant increased requirements for schools where government dollars are accepted.  Don't have time to research that now, but it's another thing to consider.

Yes, the games that are played contribute to the costs.  I think also that the pressure to have people from all demographics (not just race, but location, background, hooks, etc) plays into the college game.   It's not just about academics anymore.  When you have very smart kids who can't get into a school, and kids who are not as smart, but who are maybe from a state on the other side of the country, get accepted, that puts pressure on students and parents to "uniquify" themselves, sometimes in ridiculous ways.  (I know uniquify isn't a real word, lol.)

All part of what I meant by public schools and colleges working hand in hand in this mess. I don't see how they can untangle so this problem is just going to continue.

I told Christian when he was applying sorry son, you're a white male. You're not going to get much help.

Edited by SewWhat?
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Bendxap

Continuing on the rabbit trail of why college costs so much: I've heard that part of it is from having to have "state-of-the-art" whatevers, especially sports-related whatevers (gyms, tracks, etc.).

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SewWhat?
19 minutes ago, Bendxap said:

Continuing on the rabbit trail of why college costs so much: I've heard that part of it is from having to have "state-of-the-art" whatevers, especially sports-related whatevers (gyms, tracks, etc.).

imo athletics in colleges can be totally done away with. imo college is to learn, not to play.

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Bendxap
13 minutes ago, SewWhat? said:

imo athletics in colleges can be totally done away with. imo college is to learn, not to play.

I so agree.

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dwilterd
40 minutes ago, Bendxap said:

Continuing on the rabbit trail of why college costs so much: I've heard that part of it is from having to have "state-of-the-art" whatevers, especially sports-related whatevers (gyms, tracks, etc.).

Yes, when the college has indoor pools, ski slopes, ice skating rinks, climbing walls, etc... for general student use, don't be surprised when tuition is $70,000/year! 

I do believe most division I athletics programs are primarily funded through ticket sales and booster clubs, but I imagine for the lower tier schools they have to shoulder most of the financial burden of those programs through tuition. 

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Bendxap
29 minutes ago, dwilterd said:

Yes, when the college has indoor pools, ski slopes, ice skating rinks, climbing walls, etc... for general student use, don't be surprised when tuition is $70,000/year! 

I do believe most division I athletics programs are primarily funded through ticket sales and booster clubs, but I imagine for the lower tier schools they have to shoulder most of the financial burden of those programs through tuition. 

Our sons' schools didn't have all  hose thing but at least a pretty nice work out room, gym, and track. They are both small schools so I doubt they get much outside help. But their tuitions were more on the $40-50,000 level. Which is still more than enough!

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SewWhat?
45 minutes ago, dwilterd said:

Yes, when the college has indoor pools, ski slopes, ice skating rinks, climbing walls, etc... for general student use, don't be surprised when tuition is $70,000/year! 

I do believe most division I athletics programs are primarily funded through ticket sales and booster clubs, but I imagine for the lower tier schools they have to shoulder most of the financial burden of those programs through tuition. 

I don't know about that.... How many of the athletes are there on full ride scholarships?! That's not being paid for with booster club money. It's coming out of the pockets of those who are there for their brains, not bodies.

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mominindianapolis

On the rabbit trail of college athletics/money. This article is an older one but if you look at my state of Indiana - look who the top paid public employees are in the state....if I recall, the gov was either not on this list or very far down it. 

I personally feel college administrators are paid a ridiculous amt of money compared to the actual profs - not unlike public school administrators but that's a whole other issue.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/247wallst.com/special-report/2016/09/20/the-highest-paid-public-employee-in-every-state/amp/

Edited by mominindianapolis
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SewWhat?
14 minutes ago, mominindianapolis said:

On the rabbit trail of college athletics/money. This article is an older one but if you look at my state of Indiana - look who the top paid public employees are in the state....if I recall, the gov was either not on this list or very far down it. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/247wallst.com/special-report/2016/09/20/the-highest-paid-public-employee-in-every-state/amp/

Ridiculous. 

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