SewWhat?

Non-College jobs; lets list what our families do

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mominindianapolis
26 minutes ago, SewWhat? said:

Ridiculous. 

I sure think so!

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Mazurka
22 hours ago, SewWhat? said:

imo athletics in colleges can be totally done away with. imo college is to learn, not to play.

I totally agree. 

A lot of the costs of college could be trimmed if colleges were just for learning, not all of the other add-ins that are supposedly required for the college experience. 

In Germany, and probably most of Europe, sports are not attached to colleges, and sports fans in Europe are just as intense as here.  Not having college sports teams has not hurt fandom, KWIM?  

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SewWhat?
1 hour ago, Mazurka said:

I totally agree. 

A lot of the costs of college could be trimmed if colleges were just for learning, not all of the other add-ins that are supposedly required for the college experience. 

In Germany, and probably most of Europe, sports are not attached to colleges, and sports fans in Europe are just as intense as here.  Not having college sports teams has not hurt fandom, KWIM?  

It's a huge issue with this country, putting frivolous over substance. 

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Gilead

My pet peeve in terms of college costs -- the whole diversity department. Counting ethnicity for admission/not admission, classes on ethnicity, majors in gender and ethnicity, tenure in ethnic studies, scholarships given (or not given) for ethnicity, clubs for ethnicity (OK, I wouldn't mind these so much as a way to learn about heritage). How much might be saved if schools focused less on divisions and more on useful, practical careers. As my measly form of protest, I always fill in "other" on those forms. My kids say -- gee, should I choose dad or mom? They feel like it's a loyalty test and in some ways, so do I.

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Countrymom9

I heard an interesting account today concerning an extended family member who is quite likely a millionaire; I'm not sure of his net worth, but they certainly are not lacking for money. The ultimate non-college taking-advantage-of-your-opportunities sort of story.....

When he was in his late teens in Alaska, he won a 16' boat in some contest. He used it for salmon fishing and in a couple of years' time had enough success to buy a much larger boat. After a few more years, he branched out into other kinds of fish, marketed them well, did some value-added things, bought some more boats.....by his forties he leased the business and the required permits to someone else so he could pursue his hobbies and a second marriage. (His first had failed years earlier.) The income from the lease and his investments have supported him and his wife very well for a couple of decades now. They're very giving people as well, doing good for  grandchildren from prior marriages and causes they support.

This man married into our family about twenty years ago and I had never heard this story till now, but I thought it was just quirky enough to remind us all that there are opportunities out there we can't foresee but can certainly make the most of!

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SewWhat?
33 minutes ago, Countrymom9 said:

I heard an interesting account today concerning an extended family member who is quite likely a millionaire; I'm not sure of his net worth, but they certainly are not lacking for money. The ultimate non-college taking-advantage-of-your-opportunities sort of story.....

When he was in his late teens in Alaska, he won a 16' boat in some contest. He used it for salmon fishing and in a couple of years' time had enough success to buy a much larger boat. After a few more years, he branched out into other kinds of fish, marketed them well, did some value-added things, bought some more boats.....by his forties he leased the business and the required permits to someone else so he could pursue his hobbies and a second marriage. (His first had failed years earlier.) The income from the lease and his investments have supported him and his wife very well for a couple of decades now. They're very giving people as well, doing good for  grandchildren from prior marriages and causes they support.

This man married into our family about twenty years ago and I had never heard this story till now, but I thought it was just quirky enough to remind us all that there are opportunities out there we can't foresee but can certainly make the most of!

That's awesome!

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SewWhat?
19 minutes ago, dwilterd said:

Looks like someone is fighting back against the 4-year degree insanity: http://ij.org/press-release/lawsuit-challenges-d-c-s-day-care-education-regulation/

Someone is suing over D.C.'s regulation that requires day care providers to have a college degree. 

I hope someone wakes up soon and realizes how insane this is!

 

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Bendxap
31 minutes ago, dwilterd said:

Looks like someone is fighting back against the 4-year degree insanity: http://ij.org/press-release/lawsuit-challenges-d-c-s-day-care-education-regulation/

Someone is suing over D.C.'s regulation that requires day care providers to have a college degree. 

My first thought was "I wonder when parents-to-be will have to have a college degree first?!" (although in some cases, it might not be a bad idea!)

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Gilead
16 hours ago, Countrymom9 said:

I heard an interesting account today concerning an extended family member who is quite likely a millionaire; I'm not sure of his net worth, but they certainly are not lacking for money. The ultimate non-college taking-advantage-of-your-opportunities sort of story.....

When he was in his late teens in Alaska, he won a 16' boat in some contest. He used it for salmon fishing and in a couple of years' time had enough success to buy a much larger boat. After a few more years, he branched out into other kinds of fish, marketed them well, did some value-added things, bought some more boats.....by his forties he leased the business and the required permits to someone else so he could pursue his hobbies and a second marriage. (His first had failed years earlier.) The income from the lease and his investments have supported him and his wife very well for a couple of decades now. They're very giving people as well, doing good for  grandchildren from prior marriages and causes they support.

This man married into our family about twenty years ago and I had never heard this story till now, but I thought it was just quirky enough to remind us all that there are opportunities out there we can't foresee but can certainly make the most of!

I have a friend whose homeschooled son loves the out of doors, very much like his dad. At 14 he was asked to "help out" summers on a sport fishing boat, at 16 that turned into summer employment, at 18 when he graduated he began working on his pilot's license and having completed that was lead/mate on fishing tours. Now he's captaining a sport fishing boat (at 23) and aims at having his own fleet. Not sure how well he's doing financially but has been on his own since he was 18.

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Sandwich in Wi

Well....

I have a 4 yr degree for secondary education in math.  I've never taught math in any secondary school.  After college I: worked in an after-school daycare program and concurrently as a teacher's aide in an elementary school (they did let me tutor kids in math and work with gifted kids in math, but I spent just as much time photocopying piles of worksheets for teachers), did in-home daycare while my kids were small and now I am a waitress for the last 13 years.  I currently make way more money than I would teaching high school.  It's a very busy restaurant and I'm good at what I do ( = good tips). 

My second dd is just not into college right now.  She knows she probably needs a degree for what she wants to do (missions overseas) but she just can't bring herself to go to college and be in the box.  She's very non-traditional.  She saved up more than a year's worth of college costs working 60 hours a week at two jobs in her gap year.  She's managed to get herself back overseas doing some mission stuff with her high school diploma and a good work ethic, but she'll be back in 3 weeks now and looking for a job.  The two jobs she had previously may not be viable options now and she doesn't drive, so she's stuck in our small town.   She WAS cooking at the restaurant where I work and also at a local coffee shop/restaurant.  She wants to work hard and well, and she's appreciated at her places of employment.  It's just hard to get enough hours.

My sister went into the coast guard, got pregnant, got married, got out.  He was a lifer. She was VERY, VERY good at home-party sales and worked for several different companies, building up her business very quickly and reaching pretty high up in the organization.  The problem was her husband was transferred every 2-3 years and everything she'd worked so hard to build up would then be gone and she'd have to start over.  She's worked at Macy's, more home sales (currently in some make-up company), office work.  Never very successful or long-term.  She DID finally go to CC and get a AA degree in something she's not even remotely using.  Writing or something.  But the home party sales thing is what she excels at.  She knows how to sell and how to motivate people to do well.

My mom was an executive secretary at several companies, always to the president of the company.  My dad jumped from job to job always looking for the get-rich-quick solution. His last job was as a blackjack dealer at a casino.  He was actually very good at that and enjoyed it.

I guess I don't come from a very successful family.  They're all making do, but I don't know if a college degree would have really made a difference for some of them.  Working hard is the key, and not everyone wants to.

Blessings, Sandwich

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SewWhat?
30 minutes ago, Sandwich in Wi said:

Well....

I have a 4 yr degree for secondary education in math.  I've never taught math in any secondary school.  After college I: worked in an after-school daycare program and concurrently as a teacher's aide in an elementary school (they did let me tutor kids in math and work with gifted kids in math, but I spent just as much time photocopying piles of worksheets for teachers), did in-home daycare while my kids were small and now I am a waitress for the last 13 years.  I currently make way more money than I would teaching high school.  It's a very busy restaurant and I'm good at what I do ( = good tips). 

My second dd is just not into college right now.  She knows she probably needs a degree for what she wants to do (missions overseas) but she just can't bring herself to go to college and be in the box.  She's very non-traditional.  She saved up more than a year's worth of college costs working 60 hours a week at two jobs in her gap year.  She's managed to get herself back overseas doing some mission stuff with her high school diploma and a good work ethic, but she'll be back in 3 weeks now and looking for a job.  The two jobs she had previously may not be viable options now and she doesn't drive, so she's stuck in our small town.   She WAS cooking at the restaurant where I work and also at a local coffee shop/restaurant.  She wants to work hard and well, and she's appreciated at her places of employment.  It's just hard to get enough hours.

My sister went into the coast guard, got pregnant, got married, got out.  He was a lifer. She was VERY, VERY good at home-party sales and worked for several different companies, building up her business very quickly and reaching pretty high up in the organization.  The problem was her husband was transferred every 2-3 years and everything she'd worked so hard to build up would then be gone and she'd have to start over.  She's worked at Macy's, more home sales (currently in some make-up company), office work.  Never very successful or long-term.  She DID finally go to CC and get a AA degree in something she's not even remotely using.  Writing or something.  But the home party sales thing is what she excels at.  She knows how to sell and how to motivate people to do well.

My mom was an executive secretary at several companies, always to the president of the company.  My dad jumped from job to job always looking for the get-rich-quick solution. His last job was as a blackjack dealer at a casino.  He was actually very good at that and enjoyed it.

I guess I don't come from a very successful family.  They're all making do, but I don't know if a college degree would have really made a difference for some of them.  Working hard is the key, and not everyone wants to.

Blessings, Sandwich

I think you hit on it wonderfully, hard work is the key. College may or may not be what you need, and sounds like anyone in your family who has a degree isn't even using it.

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Lady Marmalade

Well, we're encouraging our children to look to the trades.  

DH is in the construction industry.  He did go to college and graduated with some kind of degree in arboriculture, but he's definitely not using the degree and he definitely didn't need it to get a job where he is now.  He is currently a truck driver for his company most of the time.  This position pays an hourly wage of $30-$65 depending on where he is working.  He has companies all the time offering him sweet deals to come work for them.  Other equipment operators make as much as $95 an hour.  Basic laborers at his company make $21 to start and quickly move up.

If they work hard and can stay sober, they'll go far.  Unfortunately, the whole industry is in a bit of a crisis because of the lack of workers.  DH would rather NOT spend his days driving a dump truck but not only is it hard to find willing workers, it's hard to find them with a CDL and no DUI's.  Everyone in the construction industry is hiring.  Everyone.  From the basic building framers to highway and bridge construction to pipe layers, to electricians, to well-drillers, etc.  

I went to college for Retail Management, but did not graduate because I started my career.  Then I stopped my career to have kids.  I don't plan on ever going back, to be honest.  So I'm glad I didn't quite finish the degree because it would be useless anyway.  

Extended family... I have one SIL who has a college degree and is a SAHM.  The degree is in literature? Or English? Or something like that.  Before having kids she was a grant-writer (not really related to degree) for a non-profit and will probably return to that once all the kids are in school.   

My BIL is a coach in high-level college athletics, so college is a Very Big Deal and kind of expected in DH's family.   They were not fans of our homeschooling, are definitely not fans of our kids not pursuing "real" athletics, and I guarantee will not be fans AT ALL of our kids choosing a non-college path. 

DS is totally on board with finding a trade he wants to do.  However, I honestly see him more learning a trade to help pay for his way through college should he decide to pursue dance in some way.   He's just wrapping up 8th grade, so still has plenty of time to make decisions.

DD... is a puzzle.  I think she doesn't really want to go to college.  All the mail and e-mails that have been showing up since she took the ACT are stressing her out.  However, part of her really wants to teach dance, and she knows that if she wants to make a living at that, she needs the degree.  The degree doesn't necessarily need to be in dance though, and I kind of think she might end up at the local tech pursuing a business degree of some kind if she does go.   She is also working on honing her writing skills and it's entirely possible that she may just pursue that and see where it leads her.  

We're big fans of the work Mike Rowe is doing at bringing attention to the trades and industry.   We definitely have a circle of friends who are all about going to college.  Like, there is no deviation from that plan for life.  You graduate high school, you go to college for four years, and then you get a job and do the family stuff.   Meanwhile, DH looks back on his life and wishes he'd made different choices.  If he'd started out as a young adult pursuing a trade instead of going into debt, he'd have been very successful at a very young age.  He sees that and has great hope for our kids who have a very diligent work ethic and will excel in whatever they decide to pursue.  If they choose college, we'll support them, but we'll not be paying for it and they know that. 

I think I rambled a bit.  :)

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SewWhat?
1 hour ago, Lady Marmalade said:

Well, we're encouraging our children to look to the trades.  

DH is in the construction industry.  He did go to college and graduated with some kind of degree in arboriculture, but he's definitely not using the degree and he definitely didn't need it to get a job where he is now.  He is currently a truck driver for his company most of the time.  This position pays an hourly wage of $30-$65 depending on where he is working.  He has companies all the time offering him sweet deals to come work for them.  Other equipment operators make as much as $95 an hour.  Basic laborers at his company make $21 to start and quickly move up.

If they work hard and can stay sober, they'll go far.  Unfortunately, the whole industry is in a bit of a crisis because of the lack of workers.  DH would rather NOT spend his days driving a dump truck but not only is it hard to find willing workers, it's hard to find them with a CDL and no DUI's.  Everyone in the construction industry is hiring.  Everyone.  From the basic building framers to highway and bridge construction to pipe layers, to electricians, to well-drillers, etc.  

I went to college for Retail Management, but did not graduate because I started my career.  Then I stopped my career to have kids.  I don't plan on ever going back, to be honest.  So I'm glad I didn't quite finish the degree because it would be useless anyway.  

Extended family... I have one SIL who has a college degree and is a SAHM.  The degree is in literature? Or English? Or something like that.  Before having kids she was a grant-writer (not really related to degree) for a non-profit and will probably return to that once all the kids are in school.   

My BIL is a coach in high-level college athletics, so college is a Very Big Deal and kind of expected in DH's family.   They were not fans of our homeschooling, are definitely not fans of our kids not pursuing "real" athletics, and I guarantee will not be fans AT ALL of our kids choosing a non-college path. 

DS is totally on board with finding a trade he wants to do.  However, I honestly see him more learning a trade to help pay for his way through college should he decide to pursue dance in some way.   He's just wrapping up 8th grade, so still has plenty of time to make decisions.

DD... is a puzzle.  I think she doesn't really want to go to college.  All the mail and e-mails that have been showing up since she took the ACT are stressing her out.  However, part of her really wants to teach dance, and she knows that if she wants to make a living at that, she needs the degree.  The degree doesn't necessarily need to be in dance though, and I kind of think she might end up at the local tech pursuing a business degree of some kind if she does go.   She is also working on honing her writing skills and it's entirely possible that she may just pursue that and see where it leads her.  

We're big fans of the work Mike Rowe is doing at bringing attention to the trades and industry.   We definitely have a circle of friends who are all about going to college.  Like, there is no deviation from that plan for life.  You graduate high school, you go to college for four years, and then you get a job and do the family stuff.   Meanwhile, DH looks back on his life and wishes he'd made different choices.  If he'd started out as a young adult pursuing a trade instead of going into debt, he'd have been very successful at a very young age.  He sees that and has great hope for our kids who have a very diligent work ethic and will excel in whatever they decide to pursue.  If they choose college, we'll support them, but we'll not be paying for it and they know that. 

I think I rambled a bit.  :)

Another good post showing that you do not need a college education to support your family. And it's great that you aren't telling your kids they 'have' to go to college.  We all look back and think, if only I would have... I wish I wouldn't have wasted my money on that year of rambling college after high school too. 

I know what  you mean about lack of trader workers! I hear it all over around us too, dh being in mechanics on trucks and his brother being a driver, and his dad was a heavy equipment operator as well. Pay can be very good! But, sporadic in some companies/unions. Thankfully dh works year-round no breaks. His dad had gaps of no work in the winter. He operated road equipment and around here the winters can be very harsh.  Hubby's shop is union, but it didn't become union till 19y ago. His wages aren't typical 'union' wages unfortunately since he wasn't hired "through" the union, but we do have wonderful insurance being part of the union. It's hard on his body, that's another issue with trades. But, college jobs can be hard on the body too. 

 

Our pastor's 2nd daughter got a double major in dance and business. She recently married a Navy man so her original plan of opening a dance studio is out since she'll be moving around here and there, but she's teaching at a studio anyway :) (well, not for long, soon to be a mommy for the first time :D )

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Moxie1
On 4/20/2018 at 3:08 PM, Bendxap said:

 But as people have mentioned on this and other threads, if you don't want to study, nothing will make you do it, and if you do want to study, nothing will hold you back.

My mom (and inspiration) was like that.  Daughter of immigrants that spoke broken English.  No public school available beyond the one room school house to 6th grade.  She found multiple jobs to pay for private high school and save for college.  She wanted to be a nurse.  Got no acceptance letters.  Picked her school.  Took a train halfway across the country and showed up saying her acceptance was lost in the mail.  They took her.

Totally different today.

On 4/22/2018 at 10:39 PM, SewWhat? said:

100+ years ago college wasn't the financial strain it is now. There really is no comparison. How many times on these forums even have there been threads about the skyrocketing costs of higher education especially since now-a-days there are jobs that you need a degree for that you didn't even 10y ago. Plus the general feeling that college 'is' the path after high school now more than ever, rather than other paths, I feel is one of the reasons for the rising costs. They can, because people pay for it and think they need to, so colleges keep raising the prices. It's like a badge of honor or something, oh, I've got lots of college debt.

One article I googled:

What College Cost 100 Years Ago

Greg Daugherty,Sarina Finkelstein,Julia Bohan

Sep 02, 2015

A century ago, you could buy a first-class postage stamp for 2¢, a gallon of gas for 15¢, and a dozen eggs for 34¢. If those sound like bargains, consider this: A year’s tuition at Harvard would have run you just $150, while Stanford and many state universities charged nothing at all.

The difference is instructive to say the least: a 2,263% rise in the consumer price index over the past 100 years, but a staggering increase of 42,930%, on average, in tuition costs.

Here is a really good article about the rising costs, it also mentioned just how cheap it was 100y ago (the notation about 1870 says the same thing as the above article)

Anyone reading this thread who have kids who may not be a best fit for college IT IS OK. Really! Not every kid is college material right out of high school. Maybe later? Maybe never. It's OK!

The "finishing" school at Forest Glen (Silver Spring MD) cost much more than Harvard in its day.  They had buildings in styles from around the world.  Cool place.

My college semester cost was $500.  Ds cost was well north of $10,000.

On 4/23/2018 at 12:47 AM, Merry said:

Over and over I read that one of the biggest factors is the exponential increase in administrative positions. Administrative costs are driving some schools into bankruptcy even with the high tuition costs they charge. (I've even read of schools with as many administrative positions as they have teachers!)

Totally agree with this and all the accoutrements now provided.  Ds and I went to the same university (both of us engineers).  They more than tripled the number of gyms, etc.  The increase in tuition was much more dramatic.

 

I wanted to put this first but it will not let me -

Ric Edelman (financial radio host with offices from coast to coast) did a show this past weekend talking about a very smart girl.  Top in her class, close to perfect scores on the SAT, etc.  She did the math and decided to go to diesel mechanics school.  Two years schooling, out of school salary at least double of most college grads, etc.  Her parents were aghast.  But she is persisting in her plan.

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SewWhat?
39 minutes ago, Moxie1 said:

My mom (and inspiration) was like that.  Daughter of immigrants that spoke broken English.  No public school available beyond the one room school house to 6th grade.  She found multiple jobs to pay for private high school and save for college.  She wanted to be a nurse.  Got no acceptance letters.  Picked her school.  Took a train halfway across the country and showed up saying her acceptance was lost in the mail.  They took her.

 

 

Wow!

My 28yo son's wife's mom was a similar Vietnamese story. She came over mid-teens, alone.

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Merry
2 hours ago, Moxie1 said:

My mom (and inspiration) was like that.  Daughter of immigrants that spoke broken English.  No public school available beyond the one room school house to 6th grade.  She found multiple jobs to pay for private high school and save for college.  She wanted to be a nurse.  Got no acceptance letters.  Picked her school.  Took a train halfway across the country and showed up saying her acceptance was lost in the mail.  They took her.

WOW!

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Bendxap

Here is an article about the need for skilled workers. 

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Mazurka
1 hour ago, Bendxap said:

Here is an article about the need for skilled workers. 

Somehow, I don't think our country will ever shift back to valuing the trades as highly as a college degree, and it's unfortunate.  I have to admit, I have a hard time letting go of the college dream myself. It has to do with more than money,  KWIM?

But the real reason I think that students won't be pushed into trades Is because traditionally those jobs were for people who didn't do as well in school, and I think there is a resistance to pushing people into trade tracks because there is fear that minorities and disadvantaged students will be the ones steered in that direction.  This is not the case in other countries that traditionally had a more homogenous population, like Germany.   I think our complex racial background drives a lot of things in our country, and people are not always aware of it. 

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Mazurka

Interesting opinion piece, but I think there is truth in what he is saying. 

http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/04/26/tucker-carlson-college-worth-it-costs-rising-courses-getting-easier

More and more students are going to college, but they are getting less and less value for it and taking on more and more debt.  This is the result of the "all students need to go to college" mentality. Classes are dumbed down because people with questionable academics are admitted, and then there is more competition for available spots, driving up prices.  I don't know how we'll ever get out of this situation.  

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smalltownmommy
1 hour ago, Mazurka said:

Somehow, I don't think our country will ever shift back to valuing the trades as highly as a college degree, and it's unfortunate.  I have to admit, I have a hard time letting go of the college dream myself. It has to do with more than money,  KWIM? 

I was wondering if that is why our local community college has changed so much over the years -- it is still a 2 yr college, but does not have "community" in its name -- and has built other buildings focusing on trades and specialized programs.  I have wondered if that lets people feel they've *sent their child to college* while getting vocational skills training, participating in certificate programs, etc.

People in the extended family who had jobs that didn't need degrees (with jobs that don't now need degrees) --  truck driver, construction worker, enlisted military, self employed with small motor repair, real estate agent, day care, farming

 

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Lady Marmalade
2 hours ago, Mazurka said:

Somehow, I don't think our country will ever shift back to valuing the trades as highly as a college degree, and it's unfortunate.  I have to admit, I have a hard time letting go of the college dream myself. It has to do with more than money,  KWIM?

But the real reason I think that students won't be pushed into trades Is because traditionally those jobs were for people who didn't do as well in school, and I think there is a resistance to pushing people into trade tracks because there is fear that minorities and disadvantaged students will be the ones steered in that direction.  This is not the case in other countries that traditionally had a more homogenous population, like Germany.   I think our complex racial background drives a lot of things in our country, and people are not always aware of it. 

I don't know... at some point I think the trades WILL reach crisis stage.  Not enough skilled workers to do the bare basics to keep something going will do that.  When DH is not doing his construction job he is a handyman on the side.   He mostly does basic DIY stuff that people don't have time to DIY.  He finishes basements, installs doors and windows, hangs drywall, lays floors, installs fencing, etc.  He ends up SO busy because he tries to cram everyone in because even the local "pro" handymen have their schedules filled up a YEAR in advance!  Forget about going with a professional service.  If they do a good job, they're booked out over two years.  

Sadly, he gets a lot of calls for simple things like plugged toilets.  Basic plunging skills do not require an education or a specific skill set.  A pair of arms? Yes.  But you would think anyone could wield a plunger...

 

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SewWhat?
3 hours ago, Mazurka said:

  I think our complex racial background drives a lot of things in our country, and people are not always aware of it. 

I"m not sure I know what you mean by this, can you explain?

2 hours ago, Mazurka said:

Interesting opinion piece, but I think there is truth in what he is saying. 

http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/04/26/tucker-carlson-college-worth-it-costs-rising-courses-getting-easier

More and more students are going to college, but they are getting less and less value for it and taking on more and more debt.  This is the result of the "all students need to go to college" mentality. Classes are dumbed down because people with questionable academics are admitted, and then there is more competition for available spots, driving up prices.  I don't know how we'll ever get out of this situation.  

Oh my yes, so true! Getting less value and gathering more debt, just because of the mentality that everyone must go to college. More dumb classes added that don't mean any thing at all, ie, Beyonce studies and such.

58 minutes ago, smalltownmommy said:

I was wondering if that is why our local community college has changed so much over the years -- it is still a 2 yr college, but does not have "community" in its name -- and has built other buildings focusing on trades and specialized programs.  I have wondered if that lets people feel they've *sent their child to college* while getting vocational skills training, participating in certificate programs, etc.

People in the extended family who had jobs that didn't need degrees (with jobs that don't now need degrees) --  truck driver, construction worker, enlisted military, self employed with small motor repair, real estate agent, day care, farming

 

Ours has changed for the better due to the fact that there is such a long list of classes they now guarantee will transfer to the state schools. It's not seen as such a nonsense school anymore. And, it costs are so much less than the state school.

9 minutes ago, Lady Marmalade said:

I don't know... at some point I think the trades WILL reach crisis stage.  Not enough skilled workers to do the bare basics to keep something going will do that.  When DH is not doing his construction job he is a handyman on the side.   He mostly does basic DIY stuff that people don't have time to DIY.  He finishes basements, installs doors and windows, hangs drywall, lays floors, installs fencing, etc.  He ends up SO busy because he tries to cram everyone in because even the local "pro" handymen have their schedules filled up a YEAR in advance!  Forget about going with a professional service.  If they do a good job, they're booked out over two years.  

Sadly, he gets a lot of calls for simple things like plugged toilets.  Basic plunging skills do not require an education or a specific skill set.  A pair of arms? Yes.  But you would think anyone could wield a plunger...

 

My younger brother is like that. He's a painter by trade but 1/2 his work is handyman stuff.

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Mazurka
36 minutes ago, SewWhat? said:

I"m not sure I know what you mean by this, can you explain?

 

Pretty much this from my post above, "But the real reason I think that students won't be pushed into trades Is because traditionally those jobs were for people who didn't do as well in school, and I think there is a resistance to pushing people into trade tracks because there is fear that minorities and disadvantaged students will be the ones steered in that direction."

In countries where the population is more homogenous, both racially and economically, this doesn't come in play.  Well, I'm basing my thoughts largely on Europe, particularly Germany.  In Germany, traditionally, smart kids have been tracked into an academic high school for kids who plan to go to college -- not just anybody can go, you have to have certain grades to go.  Then there are the high schools for trades -- and under the trades concept you'll generally find traditionally trades, but also things like banking.  Finally there are the lowest level high schools, where students traditionally would start working at 16.  This is the kind of high school my mother went to.  Further, once one has completed high school, it has not traditionally been easy to switch to another track, if, for instance, you decide later in life you want to pursue an academic study after all.  However, I've heard this is changing.  Back in the day,  I had a friend who went the trade school route to be a nurse, but later she wanted to specialize in music therapy.  However, she couldn't make the switch because music therapy was an academic track.  Anyhow, my point in this, that in a more homogenous society, I think it is easier to say, academic kids here, technical kids here,  hands-on kids here.  Nobody can claim that certain kids are being pushed into a specific track based on their demographics, when things are based largely on your output (grades) in schools.  That is not generally the case in the US, and is one of the reasons that it became disallowed for kids in the US to be grouped into classes for slow learners, average kids and high achievers. That's how it was when I was a kid, but that was phased out because people felt it was tracking.  Ironically, at the high school level, tracking is largely done now through AP classes -- just another name for the same thing.   A few years back one of the local minority associations pushed to eliminate some AP classes, because they felt that it diminished opportunities for minorities. 

Edited by Mazurka

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SewWhat?
33 minutes ago, Mazurka said:

Pretty much this from my post above, "But the real reason I think that students won't be pushed into trades Is because traditionally those jobs were for people who didn't do as well in school, and I think there is a resistance to pushing people into trade tracks because there is fear that minorities and disadvantaged students will be the ones steered in that direction."

In countries where the population is more homogenous, both racially and economically, this doesn't come in play.  Well, I'm basing my thoughts largely on Europe, particularly Germany.  In Germany, traditionally, smart kids have been tracked into an academic high school for kids who plan to go to college -- not just anybody can go, you have to have certain grades to go.  Then there are the high schools for trades -- and under the trades concept you'll generally find traditionally trades, but also things like banking.  Finally there are the lowest level high schools, where students traditionally would start working at 16.  This is the kind of high school my mother went to.  Further, once one has completed high school, it has not traditionally been easy to switch to another track, if, for instance, you decide later in life you want to pursue an academic study after all.  However, I've heard this is changing.  Back in the day,  I had a friend who went the trade school route to be a nurse, but later she wanted to specialize in music therapy.  However, she couldn't make the switch because music therapy was an academic track.  Anyhow, my point in this, that in a more homogenous society, I think it is easier to say, academic kids here, technical kids here,  hands-on kids here.  Nobody can claim that certain kids are being pushed into a specific track based on their demographics, when things are based largely on your output (grades) in schools.  That is not generally the case in the US, and is one of the reasons that it became disallowed for kids in the US to be grouped into classes for slow learners, average kids and high achievers. That's how it was when I was a kid, but that was phased out because people felt it was tracking.  Ironically, at the high school level, tracking is largely done now through AP classes -- just another name for the same thing.   A few years back one of the local minority associations pushed to eliminate some AP classes, because they felt that it diminished opportunities for minorities. 

Apparently some high schools are following the poor path. My twin nephews' school requires them to choose their path in 8th grade, to start 9th in one of the tracks; trade, honors, and a couple others I can't recall at this time. Who the heck knows what they want to do when they're in 8th grade?!?!?! Then, you're stuck in that track for high school. 

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Countrymom9

I can see your point, mainly because I was in school in an era when tracking was always done from first grade up. Now, you could move from one track to another, though in my small town, I noticed that the wealthier kids were always in the top track. However, by fifthe grade, some of that had leveled out. The wealthier kids were still in the top track. (I was too bc my mother was a teacher and bc I was considered the smartest kid in school.) However, we acquired a couple of really, really poor kids then as well as some kids from the mid-range class. In high school, in a different town, the tracks were honors, business, and general. I really, really wanted to take some business courses, like typing and accounting, and my mother absolutely forbade it because it would track me into a lower group and "make me unfit for college". I had no desire to go to college, no career in mind at the time other than secretarial, and wasted my college years for the most part, but she won...... The business courses would have been much more useful and most of my work out of the home has been....secretarial. Even if it hadn't, business courses are so useful in real life!

Those were the prejudices then, though, and I think they've only gotten more pronounced even though tracking as such is down the tubes. I see it occasionally when I mention ds17's plans to someone with the "college only" mentality. They say, "Well, he can always go later on" and things like that. 

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16 minutes ago, Countrymom9 said:

I can see your point, mainly because I was in school in an era when tracking was always done from first grade up. Now, you could move from one track to another, though in my small town, I noticed that the wealthier kids were always in the top track. However, by fifthe grade, some of that had leveled out. The wealthier kids were still in the top track. (I was too bc my mother was a teacher and bc I was considered the smartest kid in school.) However, we acquired a couple of really, really poor kids then as well as some kids from the mid-range class. In high school, in a different town, the tracks were honors, business, and general. I really, really wanted to take some business courses, like typing and accounting, and my mother absolutely forbade it because it would track me into a lower group and "make me unfit for college". I had no desire to go to college, no career in mind at the time other than secretarial, and wasted my college years for the most part, but she won...... The business courses would have been much more useful and most of my work out of the home has been....secretarial. Even if it hadn't, business courses are so useful in real life!

Those were the prejudices then, though, and I think they've only gotten more pronounced even though tracking as such is down the tubes. I see it occasionally when I mention ds17's plans to someone with the "college only" mentality. They say, "Well, he can always go later on" and things like that. 

Parent's shouldn't make their kids go to college. 

Nor dissuade them from college, as was my younger brother's case. Odd, she kind of shoved me into college, my older bro wanted to go and was in, and they dissuaded younger from going for what he wanted.

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5 minutes ago, Heritage of Sons said:

Just saw this related article today...

Really good article!!

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Bendxap
8 hours ago, Mazurka said:

Somehow, I don't think our country will ever shift back to valuing the trades as highly as a college degree, and it's unfortunate.  I have to admit, I have a hard time letting go of the college dream myself. It has to do with more than money,  KWIM?

But the real reason I think that students won't be pushed into trades Is because traditionally those jobs were for people who didn't do as well in school, and I think there is a resistance to pushing people into trade tracks because there is fear that minorities and disadvantaged students will be the ones steered in that direction.  This is not the case in other countries that traditionally had a more homogenous population, like Germany.   I think our complex racial background drives a lot of things in our country, and people are not always aware of it. 

We struggled a bit when Younger decided that he wasn't going to do the four year college thing (get an AA in computer networking and an auto mechanic's license) because he has such an amazing brain! Then a friend, who's a counselor, said, "Who knows? Maybe he'll figure out a new and much better way to fix something on cars!" I hadn't thought of it that way and it really helped me be ok with him going that route. (Which you know he didn't. He graduates a week from today from college.)

8 hours ago, Mazurka said:

Interesting opinion piece, but I think there is truth in what he is saying. 

http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/04/26/tucker-carlson-college-worth-it-costs-rising-courses-getting-easier

More and more students are going to college, but they are getting less and less value for it and taking on more and more debt.  This is the result of the "all students need to go to college" mentality. Classes are dumbed down because people with questionable academics are admitted, and then there is more competition for available spots, driving up prices.  I don't know how we'll ever get out of this situation.  

Yes, I saw this, too. Pretty scary stuff.

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23 minutes ago, Bendxap said:

We struggled a bit when Younger decided that he wasn't going to do the four year college thing (get an AA in computer networking and an auto mechanic's license) because he has such an amazing brain! Then a friend, who's a counselor, said, "Who knows? Maybe he'll figure out a new and much better way to fix something on cars!" I hadn't thought of it that way and it really helped me be ok with him going that route. (Which you know he didn't. He graduates a week from today from college.)

Yes, I saw this, too. Pretty scary stuff.

I hear ya! I was disappointed for Christian not to use his brain in the way I thought he would, but in the end it's his life, not mine.

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Countrymom9

Both those articles are really interesting. I think I'll bookmark the NPR one to use as ammo when family members question ds17's choice. He is, after all, in the vanguard of a return to common sense, especially since he would not, at this point, settle down and focus in college. I am absolutely sure of it, and I think he knows that too.

Ds's best friend, who is a really great kid, was trying to argue him into going to a four-year college by telling him he'd make more money if he did. Ds responded with, "I looked it up online. I'll be starting at at least $35,000 when I'm 19. Five years from now, you'll be starting at about $40,000. I think we'll both be ok." I happened to overhear this and reassured his friend that dh and I both approve of ds's choice. The reason I did is bc his dad is a professor with a PhD and their family is, as you might expect, geared toward college and more college. I think the friend thought ds was pursuing a path against our advice, bc he didn't know that parents would approve of not going to college! (I can think that with reason; I knew the parents before they got married and have known this boy all his life.)

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Mazurka

I think one reason people really want to get that 4-year degree is because it is a ticket that you can keep in your back pocket if you need it.  If you work in a trade, and your particular job closes down in your area, you still have a degree that can maybe get you another job, even if it's not in the same field and even if that job doesn't really need a degree.  I think it's silly, but that's kind of how it works.  Now, I think if you pick a trade like electrician or plumber or something similar that will always be needed, you probably don't need that college degree in your back pocket.  I don't see plumbing work EVER being outsourced to India. 

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38 minutes ago, Mazurka said:

I think one reason people really want to get that 4-year degree is because it is a ticket that you can keep in your back pocket if you need it.  If you work in a trade, and your particular job closes down in your area, you still have a degree that can maybe get you another job, even if it's not in the same field and even if that job doesn't really need a degree.  I think it's silly, but that's kind of how it works.  Now, I think if you pick a trade like electrician or plumber or something similar that will always be needed, you probably don't need that college degree in your back pocket.  I don't see plumbing work EVER being outsourced to India. 

Hubby's ongoing joke is his job is safe because "garbage is always picking up." LOL (he fixes the trucks)

That 4y degree isn't always going to serve well. There are SO many people with degrees still looking for work. Nothing is guaranteed, and the unused 4y degree is an expensive thing to have 'just because' if you're never going to use it. If you get the degree and then try to use it in 10y you're going to be out of luck with the way job markets change. The information you got the degree with isn't going to be the same anymore, therefore not really relevant if you've not been actually working in the field and keeping your skills up to date. 

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SewWhat?

I"m not anti-college! I"m anti forcing a kid into college if they're not made for it, or not ready for it at 18yo. Trades are wonderful careers for many.

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Countrymom9
9 hours ago, SewWhat? said:

I"m not anti-college! I"m anti forcing a kid into college if they're not made for it, or not ready for it at 18yo. Trades are wonderful careers for many.

I'm not anti-college either. More of my dc have gone than haven't, but mostly only with a plan in mind and as frugally as possible. We learned some of this on our first, who chose his own college, had huge student loans, majored in sociology, which even he now admits is useless. He paid the last of his loans off at about 40. He is PhD ABD; he feels no need to write his dissertation as he's an executive in a large educational firm and the degree would not advance him. He makes plenty of money and would not be where he is without his degrees, but he has risen as he has because of innate leadership skills which everyone could see in him when he was as young as three. He does not see his job as in any way contributing to the good of society and wishes he'd followed a different path. We did not know enough to guide him much. He was in public school and the guidance counselor just rubber-stamped the word "college", without his having direction, the same way we rubber-stamped student loans with no clear way he could pay them back. I'm glad God gifted him with a skill that enabled him to do something to pay off the loans!

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24 minutes ago, Countrymom9 said:

I'm not anti-college either. More of my dc have gone than haven't, but mostly only with a plan in mind and as frugally as possible. We learned some of this on our first, who chose his own college, had huge student loans, majored in sociology, which even he now admits is useless. He paid the last of his loans off at about 40. He is PhD ABD; he feels no need to write his dissertation as he's an executive in a large educational firm and the degree would not advance him. He makes plenty of money and would not be where he is without his degrees, but he has risen as he has because of innate leadership skills which everyone could see in him when he was as young as three. He does not see his job as in any way contributing to the good of society and wishes he'd followed a different path. We did not know enough to guide him much. He was in public school and the guidance counselor just rubber-stamped the word "college", without his having direction, the same way we rubber-stamped student loans with no clear way he could pay them back. I'm glad God gifted him with a skill that enabled him to do something to pay off the loans!

Rubber stamp college. Wonderful term for it!!!

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Mazurka
22 hours ago, SewWhat? said:

 

That 4y degree isn't always going to serve well. There are SO many people with degrees still looking for work. Nothing is guaranteed, and the unused 4y degree is an expensive thing to have 'just because' if you're never going to use it. If you get the degree and then try to use it in 10y you're going to be out of luck with the way job markets change. The information you got the degree with isn't going to be the same anymore, therefore not really relevant if you've not been actually working in the field and keeping your skills up to date. 

Oh, I agree that the degree is often useless and often not related at all to what a person ends up doing with it.  But for some reason, as we discussed above, so many jobs require a degree, even though the degree doesn't necessarily add to the value the candidate brings to the job. 

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14 minutes ago, Mazurka said:

Oh, I agree that the degree is often useless and often not related at all to what a person ends up doing with it.  But for some reason, as we discussed above, so many jobs require a degree, even though the degree doesn't necessarily add to the value the candidate brings to the job. 

It's ridiculous and creates the current education pickle we're in. 

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Gilead

Meanwhile the local school district was in the paper because they were "finally" going to vote that ALL diplomas for high school MUST be college prep, despite the fact that they currently have a 3-tiered tracking system: basic, college prep, and honors/AP.  Movin' right along with the times here.

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17 minutes ago, Gilead said:

Meanwhile the local school district was in the paper because they were "finally" going to vote that ALL diplomas for high school MUST be college prep, despite the fact that they currently have a 3-tiered tracking system: basic, college prep, and honors/AP.  Movin' right along with the times here.

I'd say anyone who graduates from high school should have enough skills to be able to apply to any state school, or CC or the like, any education less is jrhi level.

However, to force every kid to take what are labeled college prep classes is overboard. That'd mean all kids in calculus/trig, honors English, honors sciences, etc. That's crazy.

6 minutes ago, dwilterd said:

I scrolled through the entire thread and didn't see this article posted, but maybe it has been posted on one of the other college threads we have going? Anyway, very cool thing done at one VA high school recently: https://www.today.com/parents/signing-day-heralds-teens-going-jobs-not-college-t127184?cid=sm_npd_td_fb_ma

That's fantastic! I"ve never seen it before.

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Merry
5 hours ago, dwilterd said:

I scrolled through the entire thread and didn't see this article posted, but maybe it has been posted on one of the other college threads we have going? Anyway, very cool thing done at one VA high school recently: https://www.today.com/parents/signing-day-heralds-teens-going-jobs-not-college-t127184?cid=sm_npd_td_fb_ma

That's really great!

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